Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[GoodKingJayIII]

This is not the first (nor I doubt the last) thread I've seen about clerics stealing the wizards' thunder. Hopefully play experience demonstrates something different than what's on paper.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

PS, clerics can just multi wizard and take Archmage.

Well, no they can't(see demonlord's post). Not that it would help them much. All the Archmage and even wizard Paragon Path abilities that give extra powers or regain them specify either spells, or arcane powers(with the exception of Soul Burn, the blood mage utility, which regains an encounter power). The epic feat arcane mastery specifies wizard spells.

While this doesn't necessarily balance these issues, it is a point in the wizard column and pretty much only the wizard column.

 

[Samurai]

I simply decided to lower Firestorm's initial damage to 3d10, and Astral Storm's to 4d10. Along with certain other changes (such as Meteor Swarm knocking a target prone on a hit), I think it helps balance out the Wizard and Cleric.

 

[Minigiant]

The cleric doesn't have enough movement disabling abilities to abuse AOE. Ranged AOE is near useless at higher level without slow, immobilize, difficult terrain, prone, and grapples and lots of it. Them high level enemies have too many HP and AOE doesn't scale like 3E.

 

[Samurai]

The cleric doesn't have enough movement disabling abilities to abuse AOE. Ranged AOE is near useless at higher level without slow, immobilize, difficult terrain, prone, and grapples and lots of it. Them high level enemies have too many HP and AOE doesn't scale like 3E.

There should be other characters in the party that can disrupt movement, the Cleric doesn't have to do it.

I'm just trying to balance the spells a bit against each other.

8-48+stat in an area, that also hits any friendlies there without a feat,

vs

6-60+stat, in the same area, that only hits enemies, that autotargets worst of 4 resistances/vulnerabilities, and that continues each round for another 2-20+stat.

I think anyone can see which is the clearly better spell, hands down.

But adding knockdown to the former, and reducing initial damage on the latter to 4-40 instead of 6-60, and now they are more competetive. The Wizard spell does slightly more initial damage and can knock down targets, while the Cleric spell is sustainable, autotargets weaknesses, and ignores friendlies. That is much more balanced, IMO.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I think anyone can see which is the clearly better spell, hands down.

You forgot that it has a lot of keywords, meaning you can increase the size with Resounding Thunder and induce cold vulnerability with Lasting Frost as well.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Goumindong]

There should be other characters in the party that can disrupt movement, the Cleric doesn't have to do it.

You mean, like the wizard?

Also, if doing AoE damage is what makes a controller a controller, the Wizard wins hands down.

E.G. Bigbys Grasping hands, 4d10+int to two enemies AND it grabs them as a MOVE action per round. Daily

Prismatic Beams: 4d6+2x int + 4d10 + control(save ends) + 10+4d10 ongoing(save ends), Burst 5.

Wall of Ice: 2d6+2d10+int/round + 2d6+2d10 against anything that attacks it.

Frostburn: 3d6+2d10+int+5 AOE; Encounter: W/ Orb ability 3d6+4d10+int+10

Evards Black Tentacles: 4d10 + int + Control(save ends) +3d10 + int/round on controlled + 4d10+int+control(save ends) on anything entering or leaving the area.

Necrotic Web: 4d6+2d10+int + Immobilized + Difficult terrain + 4d6+2d10/ongoing with no save if starting in the web + immob for any creature ending its turn in the web

And not only do you get these massive AoE damages, you get to thunderwave enemies into them, stun enemies inside of them, slow enemies inside of them, make movement in them difficult, exclude your friends from the area of effects.

And you can get massive single target damage out of them too[especially if you dump]

E.G.

Necrotic Web, time stop, wall of ice(completely around the target, not an attack), wall of fire(on top of the target, not an attack), + action Point(Ice tomb)

You take 6d10 damage your self and spend a LOT of resources, but the enemy takes 7d10+2x int + 8d10+5d6/round +10 dmg/round(save ends)(with a free extra round from the ice tomb, which only prevents line of effect from attacks and these aren't attacks ). Is immobilized, cant move much anyway since the difficult terrain costs 3 extra squares of movement to go through(so 5 squares of movement per square) and he has to do 50 damage to the wall(taking 2d6+2d10 every attack against it) before he can even attempt to move out of the way while making saving throws against immobilization.

All subsequent turns the wizard slows via an at will(2 squares movement = totally immobile, as 1 square is 5 movement and target is reduced to 2 squares movement via slow). And if he does manage to make it out, he can be thunderwaved back into the maelstrom. That is 122 damage with 71 damage/round each subsequent round until the end of the encounter.[you can bolster again for 133 damage with 82 damage/round, but that last one is a save ends and probably isn't worth it will all the damage sitting in there anyway]

 

[Minigiant]

What I have learned from many games of different genre is that AOE damage is only good if

1) It kills its targets quick

or

2) It is constant and can't be avoided

In 4E, non-strikers can't kill in 1 blow. Especially with AOE. And only the wizard can slow down enemies while dropping a pile of AOE damage.

Because clerics have few ranged speed debuffs, firestorm can't be used for control. It's just an area damage power. Good for killings minions and softening other enemies.

 

[Ahglock]

But adding knockdown to the former, and reducing initial damage on the latter to 4-40 instead of 6-60, and now they are more competetive. The Wizard spell does slightly more initial damage and can knock down targets, while the Cleric spell is sustainable, autotargets weaknesses, and ignores friendlies. That is much more balanced, IMO.

The thing is since AoE damage is one of the controllers niches it should not be balanced or competitive. The controllers AoE should be clearly superior with some other classes being able to come in with a not-sucky in comparison second.

 

[Ahglock]

You mean, like the wizard?

Also, if doing AoE damage is what makes a controller a controller, the Wizard wins hands down.

I don't think the argument is that the cleric is an overall better controller than the wizard. Just that there are multiple examples where the clerics spells at certain levels come either to close or exceed the wizard in his role. It would be like if the wizard had a level 2 daily called cure wounds that healed the entire party as if they had used a healing surge + wizard int in HP. And then looking at the clerics cure light wounds daily and wandering why it only did it to one person.

AoE damage is the wizards thing, the cleric a leader should not be exceeding or even equaling that damage especially when it comes with the auto no friendly fire mode.