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Why is "I don't like it" not good enough?

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The thing that is seriously wrong is that those players showed up to a "Humans only, low fantasy" game when that is clearly not the kind of game they want to play in. It seems you are saying the GM is wrong for offering that.

Honestly, I do get rather angry with what seems like hate towards GMs for providing a game. It's much more satisfying to not get players in the first place, than to get players who just want to mess with you.
 

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The thing that is seriously wrong is that those players showed up to a "Humans only, low fantasy" game when that is clearly not the kind of game they want to play in. It seems you are saying the GM is wrong for offering that.

Honestly, I do get rather angry with what seems like hate towards GMs for providing a game. It's much more satisfying to not get players in the first place, than to get players who just want to mess with you.

I'm saying that the GM is wrong for offering that game to that group. That's obviously the wrong game for that group. It's no different than me offering to run a SF campaign and the players saying, "No, thanks. Fantasy only.", which actually has happened to me.

At that point, as a GM, what can I really do? I can't force them to play. So, I either find a new group to play my SF campaign or I go to Plan B and run that. Or, I let someone else GM. That works too.

This whole conversation, in my mind, revolves around trust. I polled En World some time ago about their experiences with GM's and about 1/3 had mostly negative experiences with various GM's. So, in a group of 5, presuming that they've all just met, and presuming they're all experienced gamers, probably at least one has had primarily negative experiences with GM's.

So, the GM states, "No X" in my game. The player questions the GM on this. Let's look at this from both sides for a moment.

From the player's side, it's entirely possible that he's had more than a few bad experiences with GM's in the past. And, one trait a lot of bad GM's share is abuse of authority. "Do what I tell you Peasant Player!" is a bad GM. Railroading is a perfect example of abusing GM power. And generally a pretty good sign of a bad GM.

So, the player is now on guard because his experience tells him that this is a warning sign of a bad GM. Not that the GM is a bad GM. It might be perfectly innocent. But, the player's experiences are telling him to be worried.

From the GM's side, it's also entirely possible he's had bad players. And bad players often ask for the moon in order to "win" the game. If you give them and inch, they'll take a mile. So, the GM bans stuff in order to get the game that he thinks will be fun.

And we wind up with this Gordian Knot where neither side, from their own perspectives, is wrong, but neither is actually right either. And it can be a difficult problem.

I've been in Shadzar's position in the past - new groups, new players, all strangers, etc. etc. And it's hard. You try to run a good game, but, there's all these different pressures on the GM because of an inherent lack of trust, mostly because the group is entirely new.

What I learned, and this is how I deal with this, not necessarily the only way to deal with this, is that it's easier to gain trust if you give it first. If I let the player have what he or she wants at the outset, not in any sort of passive agressive way (Heh, you can have it now, but I'm going to SCREW you later), but honestly let that player have what he or she wants, it works best in the long run.

Because once you've stepped back and let the player know that you are willing to trust that the player will behave in such a manner as to result in a good game for everyone, that player will often return that trust. Let the player have his monstrosity if that'll make him happy. Down the road, he'll get better. He'll learn that he doesn't have to "win" at the game.

But, the only way he'll learn that is if you let him learn it. Engage him and the rest of the group in such as way as to draw them into the campaign world so that they become invested, not just in seeing their character succeed, but in seeing the campaign succeed.
 

So, the GM states, "No X" in my game. The player questions the GM on this. Let's look at this from both sides for a moment.

No let's not look at it but form the only side that matters. Where the jerkwad players should have not made characters like that and should have just said, "no thanks" to the human only game rather than waste the GMs time.

if the players don't want to play it then say so up front. It is that very time wasting that makes me most times not to want to give ANY player any reason because having to put up with crap like your example WAY too often.

if the DM sets up the game, lets say it was on a game stores bulletin board.

The DM is notified that people are wanting to come, gets the schedule and everything else worked out for this "humans only" game, and everyone shows up with somethng like that. I would hope the store owner ran those players out of the store and apologized to the DM.

The players should have never agreed to play the game if they are just stringer the DM along.

If you got to work at it to get a group, as you acknowledge yourself, and not mad at you for anything you said except this example HAS happened, then you shouldn't have to put up with people wasting your time when it is so limited.

Very annoying, but possible scenario of even having the "social contract" agreed upon up front, then the payers wanting to come last minute and change everything. Well the DM probably ha nothing for that drastic a shift int he game.

Hmmmmm yeah had that happen before just similar, and i was hot to say the least. Was definitely in no way, shape, form, or mood to "communicate" with those players.

Too many people lose in that case, people that may have been wanting to play the advertised game, the store owner, the DM, a DM willing and wanting to run characters they had written up. Even the players with the wrong characters as they will not likely be able to join other games held in that location due to their blatant wasting time.

I think we are n the same page Hussar, but its late and I am tired so if we agree, this disregard this post as anything but in agreement. If we disagree, then i will try to see what they all say tomorrow. Just that example HAS happened before to more than jsut myself that I know.
 

I'm saying that the GM is wrong for offering that game to that group. That's obviously the wrong game for that group. It's no different than me offering to run a SF campaign and the players saying, "No, thanks. Fantasy only.", which actually has happened to me.
I think part of the issue may be that not all players / groups are willing to actually come out and say that. Some players have the same "must game" problem that "must GM" GMs have, or else they have been brought to believe that actually telling the GM what they do or do not want is bad. I've had a lot of problems where the players won't give me any real clues as to what they want until I've done all the work of getting a campaign assembled, at which point I'm loathe to change what I had planned.

It would be nice if someone wrote a book or something (and idk, maybe someone already has) of a "Dummies guide to roleplaying" type, but for people who are already experienced roleplayers. Focus on the stuff that players and / or the GM may have learned, and take as a given, that might not always be true. Focus on actually establishing some real communication of exactly what each participant actually wants / expects from the game. Of course, then you have the problem of getting people to really read it, but one thing at a time, right?

I don't think that players are actually uncommunicative about their desires for any kind of nefarious reasons, or because they're "bad players" (or at least not more than I am a "bad GM"), but I think a lot have the idea (from previous experience, etc.) that it's simply not their place to be voicing such an opinion, just as it isn't (to them) the DM's place to say that their character concepts don't fit in a given campaign. And so "why" becomes an issue on both sides... "Why?" is the question I ask of players who want to bring characters into my game that really do not belong there, and they act like "Because I want to" should be a good enough answer... (And I would reply, "Why do you want to?" Is that just the only kind of character they can have fun playing, or did they just not considered the campaign setting when making a character, or are they just trying to be difficult? The answer changes if and how I try to accommodate them...)
 

I would hope the store owner ran those players out of the store and apologized to the DM.
Why? How is some players showing up at a game with inappropriate characters in any way the fault of the store owner? A DM who expects an apology from the store owner for such an incident would seem to me to have something of an entitlement complex, not to mention an over-inflated sense of his own importance.

No let's not look at it but form the only side that matters. Where the jerkwad players should have not made characters like that and should have just said, "no thanks" to the human only game rather than waste the GMs time.
Oh, wait. Never mind.
 

By now, I really fail to see a basis for discussion anymore.

Shadzar´s saying he gms one-shots for total strangers in a shop. Ok, fine, it´s his game then and people can always chose another gm if availlable.

Most other people are talking about regular groups and longer running campaigns where they actually have to work with their players.

I really don´t see any common ground here besides rpg´ing.
 

I ran a game in a game store once. Venue wasn't quite for me. Not sure if it was the store, the players, or what, but that one experience didn't work.

Ran games in a club setting. Worked better, sometimes my games didn't "sell". That's the "luck" of a club format. Club also had some unwritten rule combined with older edition understanding of terms that lead to me losing all my players for a game that wasn't over.

Had friends come to my dorm room to "demand" I run my completely silly Planescape game during my 3rd year of college. That was meant to be a campaign, but it was just silly randomness.

Now I prefer episodic adventures, as GM or player, which may or may not be connected to each other. Given that most of the people I am emotionally close to live in another state, I have little choice but to game with strangers at cons, or round up some strangers to form a group.
 

Now I prefer episodic adventures, as GM or player, which may or may not be connected to each other. Given that most of the people I am emotionally close to live in another state, I have little choice but to game with strangers at cons, or round up some strangers to form a group.

Or make friends with local people and then invite them to game with you.
 



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