Why is it so difficult to find good groups?

[innerdude]

Based on

This thread.
And this one.
And this one.
And this one too.

I'm intensely curious: Why does it seem so hard for so many players to find a good face-to-face RPG group to play with?

It's a common scenario, right? Player X has been playing for quite a while, possibly years, with a group, and then something happens. They move, the GM moves, they get married, they break up with the girlfriend who was also in the group, another player steals said girlfriend, the GM steals said girlfriend.....you get my point. Suddenly, they're forced to go looking for another group to play with.

A few months go by without any luck. Player X wanders in to their FLGS, but realizes that they don't really like the "FLGS thing." They hear about Living FR/Eberron/Pathfinder Society, but once again, don't really get into playing their chosen RPG that way.

They could try the "online" style games, either virtual tabletop or play-by-post, but they just aren't the same, don't bring the same energy as a face-to-face game--and let's face it, there's always WoW.

Then the edition treadmill kicks in. Their old 2E/3.x/4e/Whatever Edition rules are no longer "current." Suddenly even if they did want to play with an FLGS or "Living" group, they have to invest in a series of books that they will probably rarely use, to play said game in a social situation that they're not terribly enthused about to begin with.

And yeah, $100 bucks on new books doesn't seem like much, but that's a lot of pizza....or groceries.....or 5 movie dates with the wife/husband/significant other....or 6 months of World of Warcraft.

And what if RPGs continue to move to digital distribution, with a subscription model? $15 bucks a month for something they don't really use? Not likely.

Suddenly, for any number of combined reasons, we have one of WotC's famed 20+ million lapsed RPG players.

So what are Player X's options?

1. Find an online or play-by-post game.
2. Find a group through the FLGS, for good or ill.
3. Create/GM his own group.
4. Somehow, some way finagle the old group / a different group together with a new dynamic.

But if you're the "average" player--in other words, not super hardcore, may have inklings of GM potential, but isn't particularly interested in investing the time and money to become a "master"--none of these options is particularly appealing.

1. Online/Play-by-post/Virtual table top.

Personally, if they're really hard up, this is probably the best option--but in spite of some people's opinions to the contrary, I've just never felt online play carried the same "weight" as a face-to-face session. There's a certain interpersonal energy that's missing--the action/reaction of each player, an emotion that just doesn't carry through even a very good VTT session. But it's probably the best option if they truly can't find another group.

2. FLGS play.

For any number of reasons, this may not be a realistic, or even desirable option.

Proximity, for one thing--not everyone has ready access to an FLGS, even if they wanted to frequent one.

For another thing, as I mentioned in different thread a month or so ago, it boggles my mind just how often we as RPG players put up with boorish, oafish, egotistical, anti-social behavior just to "enjoy" our chosen hobby.

And no offense to you FLGS regulars that don't fall into this category, but the FLGS is an absolute breeding ground for these types of players.

Whether it's self-selection, or simply the fact that they're a "public" forum, FLGSes seem to attract a disproportionate amount of misanthropes to their establishments.

Of course if you're truly "hardcore" and must get your fix, then you'll do whatever it takes. But 98% of my FLGS experiences have made me vow that if it was ever a choice of not playing RPGs versus trying to find one through an FLGS, I'd choose not playing--and this is coming from a guy who actively GMs a Pathfinder game right now, and before that was a player in a semi-regular group since 2002. To the "average" player, this isn't even close to a realistic option.


3. GM a game himself/herself

Again, to the "average" player who enjoys the game, but isn't interested in emulating Gygax or Robot Chicken, this isn't an option either.

If they didn't have the guts/will/desire to do it when they were actively gaming, why would they want to try it when they're "lapsed?"

To say nothing of the fact that they're still faced with many of the same issues as #4.


4. Hodge podge or create a new group from his existing "contact base."

This is obviously fraught with problems as well.

What if the group broke up on bad terms? What if other group members have moved on to another group? It's generally bad form to poach players from other campaigns, just as it's bad form to beg into an existing game.

And who's going to GM said group, even if the player takes the initiative to put it together in the first place? Someone the player hardly knows? If it's a GM they already know, why didn't they just switch to begin with? Besides, how many good GMs are just "between groups," waiting to start up a new campaign? Chances are that if someone is not GM-ing when they'd actively like to it probably means they're not a very good GM.

The whole Misanthrope Factor comes into play all over again.

And if he or she has moved, the whole concept of "contact base" from their old location is completely out of date.

My point in bringing this up is to ask some questions:

How do these types of scenarios affect the hobby's ability to grow? Is there a better way to get lapsed players back? And if an already initiated player can have problems like this, how much more difficult is it for someone who has barely been initiated, or is waiting in the wings to be initiated, to find a group that will sustain their love of the hobby?

 

[shadzar]

Edition treadmill has played into it a lot in recent years. This includes all the OGL games. There are a lot of players, but often they are playing so many games now, including non-RPGs.

People today aren't as apt to just play RPGs, or even one RPG, and it really has been a boon for the gaming industry, but a bane to many players as well.

You just pretty much have to play whatever you can find, or wait and hope. There will never again be one dominant RPG as so many exist today, and will continue to exist as long as their pages last, and their digital copies last.

 

[prosfilaes]

Long term, If I'm WotC, my strategy is to have two distinct product lines, but have supplemental material compatible with both. The "Basic" system should remain nearly static, undergoing relatively minor changes once every 15-20 years. While the "Advanced" system can be the further-reaching, "experimental" or "hardcore" version, that undergoes changes every 10 years or so. Modules should be compatible with both versions, with all of the GM add-ons coming along for the ride as a revenue stream, with the "digital" subscription element being an ancillary to the "Advanced" system.

TSR sold a DL1-3 as a set converted from AD&D 1 to AD&D 2. But if you played them as written, you'd get a TPK at the end of DL1, because dragons are much nastier in AD&D 2 then AD&D 1. And AD&D 1 and AD&D 2 are much more similar than D&D 3.5 and D&D 4; trying to dual-stat a D&D 4 adventure for D&D 3.5 could be very challenging, and even mechanically done right, it could have the feel of D&D 4 in D&D 3.5; most D&D 3.5 games don't have a surfeit of dragonborn running around, for example.

And one of the comments that I've heard a couple times from old school (but not ancient school) gamers is that they played AD&D and never gave Basic D&D a first look, because who wants to play Basic instead of Advanced? You're going to have two games, but you're going to have a lot of people playing AD&D and ignoring Basic, either because nobody plays Basic in their area or for the reason given above. If you do have a lot of people playing Basic, it may be because Basic is the better game... then you've got to wonder why they're supporting Advanced. Changing their main money maker only every ten years isn't likely; these edition changes seem to have profitable for Hasbro.

 

[Coldwyn]

I recently moved to another city so I´ve got first-hand experience on this matter

Going to a LFGS and playing along with the LFR groups and partaking in Encounters was a good interim solution and helped ease my gamer itch.

Signing on to the local hobby boards helped to get in touch with existing groups.

I´ve met up with some of my neighbours for board game evenings and after a good round of Arkham Horror, proposed to play Call of Cthulhu next time and they happily agreed.

Lastly, I got in touch with some local publishers and inquired if the knew some groups looking for players or if there´re any playtests going on.

 

[thejc]

Gaming groups are tough. Sometimes you just have to make the best out of it. I had moved to a larger city for work leaving behind my rural group that had been playing together since jr. high school and through college and some of our "adult" lives. It was rough. I went to the bulletin board at my flgs and answered an ad. Turns out these people lived right down the street. Most of them were great. All of us working adults with families or at least significant others(minus one who was a younger brother but still cool) One of them was not. I have never met a more biggoted and arrogant person in my life.

Understand I am a cornfed born and raised good ol boy from the fields of the midwest. When you have your wife sit in on a session only to order her to get you food, get your drinks and do other menial tasks and talk down to her when she doesn't acomplish these fast enough for you. There's only so much I can take. Third session ended in me taking him out in the street, and putting some respect in him like his momma never did.

I thought essentially that I wouldn't game with them anymore. The jerk and the host had known each other for years. I was the new guy. But no they ousted the jerk and I stayed. These people became some of my best friends.

I say all that to say that sometimes even though you might not hit it off right away with a group give it time. There is a factor that no PHB or DMG mentions. D&D is at it's core about relationships. The chemistry of the table is important, paramount to long term campaign play. This can only be done through sticking it out and forging those relationships.

 

[amerigoV]

When I moved, I used a couple of internet boards to initially find a group. I got real lucky and tapped into a pipeline of gamers that happened to be ER medical residents at the nearby university (the stories they can tell).

Meetup.com can be a help. For those not familiar, its a site where you can find like-mind folks for just about any hobby. They schedule gatherings usually once a month. I've met a few folks that way and also used it to fill a slot in a game I was running.

The posting at the local FLGS netted me a couple of players for a time.

Now, VTT is a fine solution for me when players are scarce. I find the socializing vs. gaming mix to be about right (this is when everyone is on line - I am not a huge fan of a group in the room with 1 or 2 remote).

It can be tough for a simple reason - people. If you find the right ones a new group is great. If not....well, then you get all sorts of posts to EnWorld.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think the core problem is that good gaming groups are stable. Very stable. I'm the newbie in my current one (a bit over a year) - it's been togther twenty years or so with several of the original members there in a group currently of five. This means that there are rarely slots open in groups that are both good and established; the previous time my group gained a member was, I think, five years before I joined. If this is anything like representative there are few slots in established groups.

For how, I think the best way is internet meeting grounds - I'm also a member of two RPG meetups (one for D&D, one for Indy Games) and they are much less ... worrying than the FLGS.

 

[EnochSeven]

I think the core problem is that good gaming groups are stable. Very stable. .

Yeah I think there is truth to this. The good tables are full and people rarely leave them. So there isn't room. Ironically, even the most stable table can sometimes use a dose of fresh blood.

I know with my own group I hold onto my seat very tightly. I'm lucky and I know it.

There are other great points in this thread. It seems like there is always a trouble maker at every random table I sit at. People just don't always get along.

Finding a good group is very hard and usually you have to compromise. Especially when you are older and have kids and work and the responsibilities of life to make it more difficult to coordinate regular meetings.

 

[Stumblewyk]

I just haven't had this kind of problem. I guess I'm lucky in that regard. The core of my "primary" group got together in high school. Many of us moved away, lost interest as we grew older, etc. But my good friend and myself kept at it, recruited new members to our group via comic book store/game store message boards and friends who were genre-interested but not gamers, etc.

But I also got my wife interested, and found 2 new players via a second group I joined and PenandPaperGames.com.

The second group isn't nearly as close-knit as the primary group, but we all get along, seem to enjoy playing together, and I didn't know a single one of them prior to joining them about a year and a half ago. I found them via the WotC message board.

That group eventually added a player who has now joined my primary group, and the player who found me on PenandPaperGames.com was a complete newbie to P&P RPGs, but he wanted to learn, and I'm an avowed RPG evangelizer. Who was I to turn down someone with the desire to learn the game and no one to play it with or learn it from? After all, "there but for the grace of God go I."

In short, I think finding a stable, reliable, enjoyable gaming group is more about finding people you can be friends with than it is about finding people to play with. I would call every single member of my primary group my friend, and wouldn't hesitate to spend time with them outside the game (and have on many occasions). Everyone in my second group is, if not my friend, someone who could be. I think compatible personalities are more important than just finding someone who likes the same game you do.

 

[delericho]

It is sad but true that few of us develop new friendships beyond our mid-twenties or so. The school and university experience pushes us together and provides a common experience that can be the basis of a friendship; beyond those years, the impetus just isn't the same.

Still, it can be done.

To help with finding and/or building a new group, I recommend the following:

1) Be pleasant to be around. Your childhood friends probably learned to take you as you are, but the truth is that if you are in this position then you're not around them any more. Strangers have no obligation to take you as you are. If you aren't someone they want to spend time with, you'll either not be invited back, or you'll find that they don't come back.

So, avoid 'hot' topics like politics or religion (or, in Glasgow, football... which is basically the same thing). Don't make with the racist or sexist comments. Show up when and where you say you will (and be aware that being early can be as much of an issue as being late!). If you haven't done so already today, go have a shower, brsuh your teeth, shave (if appropriate), and put on clean clothes.

As time goes on, you may find that some of these can be relaxed. At the outset, though, don't assume.

2) Use all avenues of exploration. If you're wondering whether to use a "Gamers Seeking Gamers" site, or Meetup, or the FLGS, or some other method for finding players, the answer is yes. Use all of them.

It may well be that playing in the FLGS, or in LFR, or similar is really not your cup of tea, but consider this: many people who play there are likely also to play games at home, or in other clubs or venues. Likewise, if you get yourself known at the FLGS, the owner is more likely to pass on your name the next time a customer mentions that they're looking for new players. (And, yeah, you're probably going to have to buy stuff from the FLGS.)

3) Get rid of those prejudices. Okay, so you hate 4e (or Pathfinder, whatever). But if the only game in town is 4e, then suck it up and play. (And don't spend the session moaning about the game system either - see #1.)

Again, many people play more than one game, and even more might be willing to at least try other systems. So, play their game for now, become known in the group... and later suggest that maybe you could run Pathfinder/WFRP/SWSE/WoD when the current campaign winds down. (And be prepared for them still saying no!)

4) Be prepared to do the legwork, at least for now. There may well not be a group in town. In which case, you'll need to go to the trouble of putting one together. You may well have to be prepared to teach the game to newbies. And you may well have to be the one to act as GM along the way. Suck it up.

Here's the thing: of those of us who are good DMs, approximately 0% of us were good DMs the first time we picked up the dice. We struggled, we made mistakes, and eventually we muddled through. But we got there - so can you.

(The best advice comes from Doctor Who: "Try and be all nervous and rubbish and a bit shaky. Because you're going to be like that anyway. Might as well make it part of the plan and then it'll feel on purpose.")

Oh, and if you're worried about the cost, you probably shouldn't be. The vast majority of games require only a single book to run (and have lots of free support available online). Even D&D/Pathfinder only require a small number of books to run. (And there are very few games out there that require even one book in order to play.)

5) About Acceptance: As I said in #1, strangers are not obliged to take you as you are, and it cuts both way. If there's someone in your new group that you don't like, you are free to uninvite that person (for absolutely any reason... or indeed for no reason at all). Be aware, however, that each time you do this, you reduce your pool of potential players by at least one, and quite possibly more. Do it too often, and you'll find yourself with nobody around the table.

Some Notes About Meetup

I can second the recommendation for using Meetup.com. I found it very useful. Indeed, I am the Organiser of the Falkirk RPG Meetup, a group that has been going for a bit over a year, and which has grown from only a couple of people to the upper-twenties. Over that time, we've made contact with two other local gaming groups, and so are fairly vibrant.

When using Meetup, I recommend the following:

1) Schedule a Meetup right away. From what I've seen of other similar meetups, a lot of them get set up, and then sit there with nothing happening. If a Meetup looks like nothing is happening, then nobody will bother joining. On the other hand, if there are events occurring, then people are more likely to jump in.

(Similarly, once the group has been going for a while, you should probably schedule a second, and further meet'n'greet event, to let new people jump in. Sure, you may be happy to find four other people to game with, but eventually one of them will leave, and you'll want someone else to take his place.)

2) Schedule your initial meeting, and any further meet'n'greets in public places. Your first meeting with a group of strangers should never take place in someone's home.

3) Be prepared to start small. At our first meetup, there were a grand total of three people present. It happens. The best thing to do is to get started anyway. Play a game that only requires a couple of players. Have the players run multiple characters. Consider the use of gestalt characters. But whatever you do, don't decide to wait for more people to join the group. Get it up and going, and they will come.