Why is Jump skill so useless?

[Kilroy]

After playing a character for over a year, (13th level Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist now), I finally had a chance to use Jump skill for the first time tonight. I've put quite a few of my sparse skill points into it, and combined with monk speed increases, I'm now at a +24 to Jump. There were archers standing 30' up in trees, with branches 10' up and 20' up.

My NPC monk follower jumped up from branch to branch and knocked one of them out of the tree. I figured "hey, here's my chance to show off my jump skill" to get to a bad guy, so I tried. I rolled a 4. The other players all said "ouch", then looked shocked when I said "28" (I've never used the skill before).

Imagine my surprise when the DM told me I needed to make DC 80 to jump up 10 feet. (It was dark out, so running starts weren't possible.) I discovered I could climb the tree using the epic tumbling rules (only DC 50 to tumble up a vertical surface, possible for my character) but other than magic (I ended up casting fly) or punching each tree down, that was my only way up. Otherwise, it would take a minimum of 3 rounds to climb and since I don't have skill points in Climb, I'd have about a 7/8 chance of falling on the way up.

What is the point of a skill this useless? Anything Jump can do can be done by a first or second level spell. Why bother having a skill that only comes up once a year be so underpowered when it does?

I really shouldn't come on the internet and complain, but this is the first time I've been angry at the 3.5 rules. Who thought that these absurd DCs was a good idea? Are there any eratta that bring back 3.0's Leap of the Clouds type abilities?

It might just be my game, but it seems like Climb, Jump, Balance & Swim wouldn't even be nearly worth taking if they were a single skill. In a world where characters can fly, teleport, and wrestle elephants, what's the point of limiting a character to worse than normal real world human jumping ability?

It just seems stupid that it's about as hard to jump up 10 feet as it is to balance on water, slip through a keyhole or swim up a waterfall.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Your DM left out vertical reach.

The DC for a 10-ft. high jump without a running start is indeed 80. (It's only 40 with a running start.) But, medium creatures have a vertical reach of 8 feet. You only had to clear 2 feet to grab onto the branch. Not as dramatic as landing on it, but you could still have hauled yourself up.

 

[monboesen]

And a 2 ft. high jump without running start is then DC 16 or an automatic succes.

 

[hong]

Your DM left out vertical reach.

The DC for a 10-ft. high jump without a running start is indeed 80. (It's only 40 with a running start.) But, medium creatures have a vertical reach of 8 feet. You only had to clear 2 feet to grab onto the branch. Not as dramatic as landing on it, but you could still have hauled yourself up.

In this case though, the character doesn't just want to grab on to the ledge and them haul himself up. He wants to jump up to the first branch, and then bounce off that to the second branch, etc, Ninja Scroll-style. This sounds a lot like he actually needs to clear the branch, so the full DC 80 check would apply.

In general, I agree that the high jump DCs are too high. Instead of (4 x distance), with a further doubling without a runup, maybe (distance + 10) or (distance + 15) would be more appropriate. It's not like it's going to break the game, and it'll give fighters and monks a chance to show off without having to resort to winged boots.

 

[Jdvn1]

Jump also has a lot of other uses. Our Ranger used it the other day to jump onto a boat that was leaving dock. Barely made it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It might just be my game, but it seems like Climb, Jump, Balance & Swim wouldn't even be nearly worth taking if they were a single skill.

It depends on the DM. As a DM, I make a point of including situations where physical skill checks are either required, or possible (to gain some sort of advantage, such as high ground or cover.) If your DM never requires you to Climb, Jump, Balance, or Swim, then certainly the skills will be useless.

In a world where characters can fly, teleport, and wrestle elephants, what's the point of limiting a character to worse than normal real world human jumping ability?

Well, a standing high-jump is very difficult, even in the real world. I'm not sure I could jump more than 2 feet myself. Jumping 10 feet is...incredible. In fact, according to this page the record for the standing high jump is 6 feet. Granted, that was in the 1890's. Another page lists Olympic records for a standing high jump up to 1912, none of which are over 6 feet. So I'd say that the 3.5 Jump skill isn't much "worse than normal real world human jumping ability."

It just seems stupid that it's about as hard to jump up 10 feet as it is to balance on water, slip through a keyhole or swim up a waterfall.

Since, from the quick Google search I did, all of these things are equally impossible for human beings, it seems reasonable that they be equally difficult in the D&D world, excepting magic.

I do sympathize, though. I played a PC a few years back who was an acrobat and invested a lot in Jumping. I always wanted to have a massive standing high jump as well. But as it is, it's a difficult thing to obtain. Perhaps a Ring of Jumping? Or do you already have one?

 

[hong]

Well, a standing high-jump is very difficult, even in the real world. I'm not sure I could jump more than 2 feet myself. Jumping 10 feet is...incredible. In fact, according to this page the record for the standing high jump is 6 feet. Granted, that was in the 1890's. Another page lists Olympic records for a standing high jump up to 1912, none of which are over 6 feet. So I'd say that the 3.5 Jump skill isn't much "worse than normal real world human jumping ability."

A 13th level character with +24 Jump isn't real world any more. All that tells you is that a 5 foot standing jump should be ~ DC 20-25 or so. Greater heights would have higher DCs, but the rate of increase is something to be decided by other factors... like what campaign feel you're after.

Since, from the quick Google search I did, all of these things are equally impossible for human beings, it seems reasonable that they be equally difficult in the D&D world, excepting magic.

Reminds me of a proof that 1 == 2 I once saw.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

A 13th level character with +24 Jump isn't real world any more. All that tells you is that a 5 foot standing jump should be ~ DC 20-25 or so. Greater heights would have higher DCs, but the rate of increase is something to be decided by other factors... like what campaign feel you're after.

I don't disagree. I was responding to the OP's implied assertion that the D&D jump skill limited a character's jumping ability to less than what real world people are capable of. It doesn't, since real world atheletes are capable of at best a 6 foot standing high jump. The D&D jump skill allows better than real world jumping capability, albeit at a high DC to still make it rare and difficult, if possible.

Reminds me of a proof that 1 == 2 I once saw.

I'm unfamiliar with the double equals-sign. Does it mean something different from 1=2?

 

[NewbyDM]

It doesn't, since real world atheletes are capable of at best a 6 foot standing high jump.

real world atheletes can only dream of such a standing jump.... 4 foot for a standing jump is already almost inhuman(if not impossible).
If i could jump 6 foot up, i would be able to jump turn and land with my ass on the basket from a standing position... i could only dream of such a thing

 

[Yair]

I agree the DCs are way too high for the skill to be useful, and I too found it very limiting. Come to think of it, the next game I DM I'll lower the DCs if anyone wants to take Jump ranks.