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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 9257616" data-attributes="member: 6704184">Right, give batman a dagger and a willingness to kill and he's a master assassin. Applying conditions is good, and I'd add exploiting them as well. You can sneak attack a poisoned, frightened, grappled target without needing the normal requirements. Another idea I like is to mark a target and gain utility benefits against them, including being able to sneak attack them as above. Maybe it's advantage on checks to track, find, eavesdrop on, deceive, intimidate, and charm, and something that is useful in combat that isn't damage, like being able to OA them with more triggers.I think you'd have to pick a single target to give the surprised condition to, and yeah if poison is the angle, actually make it the angle. Basically the poisoner feat with less of a damage buff, and maybe crafting poison rules based on the listed price for a poison, where you learn how to make two more poisons, and you can make poisons in half the time, at level 9, etc. But yeah I'm optimistic that the revised rules will be a bit less dependant on DM buy in, and more player facing and more something the players can actively make use of and know pretty much what they're doing.All good, thanks for acknowledging that.Yes, I'm fully aware of all this, however the thief and swashbuckler and even super weak sauce inquisitive, all become thier archetype at level 3. If the assassin cannot do that, it shouldn't be a rogue subclass.Getting there at level 13 means the subclass doesn't do it's job. It has failed. The archetype isn't &quot;super awesome master assassin&quot;, it's just &quot;assassin&quot;. It has to get there when it is chosen in order to not be a failed subclass.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 9257616, member: 6704184"] Right, give batman a dagger and a willingness to kill and he's a master assassin. Applying conditions is good, and I'd add exploiting them as well. You can sneak attack a poisoned, frightened, grappled target without needing the normal requirements. Another idea I like is to mark a target and gain utility benefits against them, including being able to sneak attack them as above. Maybe it's advantage on checks to track, find, eavesdrop on, deceive, intimidate, and charm, and something that is useful in combat that isn't damage, like being able to OA them with more triggers. I think you'd have to pick a single target to give the surprised condition to, and yeah if poison is the angle, actually make it the angle. Basically the poisoner feat with less of a damage buff, and maybe crafting poison rules based on the listed price for a poison, where you learn how to make two more poisons, and you can make poisons in half the time, at level 9, etc. But yeah I'm optimistic that the revised rules will be a bit less dependant on DM buy in, and more player facing and more something the players can actively make use of and know pretty much what they're doing. All good, thanks for acknowledging that. Yes, I'm fully aware of all this, however the thief and swashbuckler and even super weak sauce inquisitive, all become thier archetype at level 3. If the assassin cannot do that, it shouldn't be a rogue subclass. Getting there at level 13 means the subclass doesn't do it's job. It has failed. The archetype isn't "super awesome master assassin", it's just "assassin". It [I]has to get there when it is chosen[/I] in order to not be a failed subclass. [/QUOTE]

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