D&D 5E Why Is The Assassin Rpgue?

[doctorbadwolf]

Genuinely.

I forgot that the UA Assassinate feature is just a very small damage bonus on 1 attack max in round one, and advantage on initiative and on attacks in round 1 against any target that hasn’t gone.

So Rogue level damage once an encounter, advantage on one attack per encounter, and higher chance of going early in round one. Nothing useful after round one.

And Disguise and Poisoner kit proficiency.

That’s it.

That damage boost is meaningless, advantage on one attack is…very easy to get as a rogue, it’s just a bad level 3 for a rogue. Every other rogue gets better features.

Why even have this?

Like make it extra d6s damage, and you get it any time you hit and deal SA damage while hidden or the target is incapacitated.

Or if it is gonna be a first round thing, go back to 2014 and make it work when the target hasn’t acted yet, or you are hidden, in the first round of combat.

But really, does the rogue have enough room to make an assassin at level 3? Between this and 2014 I am more convinced than before that the answer is no.

But maybe I’m wrong. Anyone got a better take on the level 3 for the assassin?

 

[Kurotowa]

You're taking Assassin out of context. Look at what the other Rogue subclasses get at 3rd level. Thief gets no damage increase, Swashbuckler only gets a new way to activate Sneak Attack that doesn't increase their maximum output, and Arcane Trickster only gets a minor damage increase if your DM lets you take Booming Blade.

Assassinate is not the One Shot, One Kill ability of a master Assassin to take down even the toughest foes when catching them by surprise. That's what Death Strike at 17th level is supposed to be. Assassinate is the ground floor, the introductory taste of what you're eventually going to achieve. It's still more of a direct damage increase than anyone else gets.

Now, does it feel a bit thin compared to the utility of what Thief gets, or the spellcasting of Arcane Trickster? Maybe. That's a personal judgment call, and if you do feel that way, then Assassin probably isn't right for you. That's okay, plenty of other fish in the sea. But there's no room in the class budget for a significant damage increase at 3rd level. Not on top of getting another Sneak Attack die. Ain't no one getting that big a power spike that early.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think of it this way... compare 3rd level Thief to 3rd level Assassin (both with 18 Dex, a rapier & a dagger) backstabbing a bugbear (27 hp) with surprise.

Thief deals 1d8+4+2d6 with rapier Sneak Attack and 1d4 with offhand dagger, for a total of 18 damage. The bugbear may get a chance to fight back or raise the alarm!

Assassin deals 2d8+4+4d6 with rapier Sneak Attack (Assassinate) and 2d4 with offhand dagger (Assassinate), for a total of 32 damage. The bugbear is dead as a doornail.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I do think the disconnect you point out is part of why the subclass isn't too popular IMXP. Thieves and swashbucklers can have mostly aesthetic bonuses and be fine, but part of an assassin's aesthetic is killing things quickly, and your first abilities don't seem to let you kill things more quickly than anyone else, really. I mean, they reward you for being quick (and help you to be quick), but the kill things aspect that is, aesthetically, why one may want to be an assassin...isn't strong. And kind of can't be, thanks to balance.

Add to that how much the subclass's aesthetic relies on striking from stealth, and how stealth in 5e plays a little loose in its combat effects (there's no surprise round, so maybe your surprise attack from stealth does bupkiss, I guess, roll better initiative), and you've got something that can be...not what you envisioned.

I think it might be an interesting experiment to add some disabling effect to the Assassin's Assassinate feature. Like, if the target survives, it is stunned for a round. Maybe tether it to a CON save. Like a one-turn, non-repeatable stunning fist effect. Get the drop on the red dragon and it's going to (a) feel it and (b) not immediately breathe fire on you, because you managed to knock it for a loop. That feels powerful, but it's not too much (especially with a save and the fact that it only works sometimes on the first turn).

 

[Kurotowa]

Let's take this in a different direction. There are limits to how far you can push a gimmick of "Best at Killing People" because so much of D&D is combat that damage output is pretty regulated. So what sort of class features should an Assassin subclass have that aren't about increasing their damage output? Keeping in mind that the character is still a D&D PC, who has to operate in a party and go on standard D&D type adventures.

Right now, UA6 Assassin gets Disguise Kit and Poisoner's Kit at 3rd level. Then at 9th level they get better at disguises, at 13th level they get better at poisons, and at 17th level they get better at killing targets they get the drop on. That's kind of all the major bases covered, and you wouldn't want to take any of them out. So all that's left is the one orphan 3rd level feature to go along with the tool proficiencies.

A stealth or perception ability? Maybe, though there are limits to how good that would be at 3rd level. Something to help them surprise targets? Their current class feature already does that, with Advantage on Initiative checks. What else is there, that fits in the available budget and makes your Rogue feel like an Assassin?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You're taking Assassin out of context. Look at what the other Rogue subclasses get at 3rd level. Thief gets no damage increase, Swashbuckler only gets a new way to activate Sneak Attack that doesn't increase their maximum output, and Arcane Trickster only gets a minor damage increase if your DM lets you take Booming Blade.

Having played several other rogues, I really don't think I am. The rogue has plenty of room for a controlled burst of damage. The "if you hit you crit" thing is great, it just needs to be reliable, otherwise it's worse than a ribbon.

Assassinate is not the One Shot, One Kill ability of a master Assassin to take down even the toughest foes when catching them by surprise. That's what Death Strike at 17th level is supposed to be. Assassinate is the ground floor, the introductory taste of what you're eventually going to achieve. It's still more of a direct damage increase than anyone else gets.

Feel free to quote a statement from me saying that assassinate needs to be one-shot kill.

Now, does it feel a bit thin compared to the utility of what Thief gets, or the spellcasting of Arcane Trickster? Maybe. That's a personal judgment call, and if you do feel that way, then Assassin probably isn't right for you. That's okay, plenty of other fish in the sea. But there's no room in the class budget for a significant damage increase at 3rd level. Not on top of getting another Sneak Attack die. Ain't no one getting that big a power spike that early.

half the classes in the game get more of a damage boost than that at level 3. And this is one attack in, at best, most encounters.

You know, for someone accusing me of looking at things wrong, you sure seem to be missing what I am actually saying in the actual text of the OP. The OP literally asks, and I quote, "does the rogue have enough room to make an assassin at level 3?"

Oh, and my answer is, again this is text in the OP, "Between this and 2014 I am more convinced than before that the answer is no."

So...what on earth are you even replying to?

I think of it this way... compare 3rd level Thief to 3rd level Assassin (both with 18 Dex, a rapier & a dagger) backstabbing a bugbear (27 hp) with surprise.

Thief deals 1d8+4+2d6 with rapier Sneak Attack and 1d4 with offhand dagger, for a total of 18 damage. The bugbear may get a chance to fight back or raise the alarm!

Assassin deals 2d8+4+4d6 with rapier Sneak Attack (Assassinate) and 2d4 with offhand dagger (Assassinate), for a total of 32 damage. The bugbear is dead as a doornail.

So it took a second to realize you were comparing the 2014 version. Long day. Anyway, now compare them doing thief stuff, like direct stealth based infiltration.
More to the point, that's if the assassin is allowed to surprise targets by their party, if they do it successfully, and if they hit. The Swashbuckler gets to basically not think about how to get SA and rarely has to use disengage.

The assassin terrible, and the only improvement of the new version is that it at least gets something that is useful outside of a single round of combat.

Let's take this in a different direction. There are limits to how far you can push a gimmick of "Best at Killing People" because so much of D&D is combat that damage output is pretty regulated. So what sort of class features should an Assassin subclass have that aren't about increasing their damage output? Keeping in mind that the character is still a D&D PC, who has to operate in a party and go on standard D&D type adventures.

Right now, UA6 Assassin gets Disguise Kit and Poisoner's Kit at 3rd level. Then at 9th level they get better at disguises, at 13th level they get better at poisons, and at 17th level they get better at killing targets they get the drop on. That's kind of all the major bases covered, and you wouldn't want to take any of them out. So all that's left is the one orphan 3rd level feature to go along with the tool proficiencies.

A stealth or perception ability? Maybe, though there are limits to how good that would be at 3rd level. Something to help them surprise targets? Their current class feature already does that, with Advantage on Initiative checks. What else is there, that fits in the available budget and makes your Rogue feel like an Assassin?

First things first, see the end of the OP. As I said, I'm not convinced the Rogue even can successfully model an assassin. I played an assassin one time, using the thief subclass, before I'd built a full assassin class.

As to what level 3 could be, I think making deception checks, apply poisons, and get into or out of a disguise as a bonus action could work. Along with poisoner kit and disguise kit prof.

Another idea would be a choice of tools, so the whole assassin isn't just one archetype of assassins.

Being able to hide more easily in some way, and to stay hidden more reliably. I suggested social stealth mechanics for my assassin class in a thread once and everryone told me that was foolish because that's just a normal stealth check, which I think is a wild claim, so perhaps being able to hide while only lighty obscured by other creatures, similar to the first Assassin's Creed game.

ANother thing that game does well is just smoothly moving, killing, moving, and hiding again, in what would be one turn in DnD. I've struggled to do this in my Assassin class, and what I landed on was the ability to move and hide as a reaction when you drop a creature to 0hp.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But really, does the rogue have enough room to make an assassin at level 3? Between this and 2014 I am more convinced than before that the answer is no.

But maybe I’m wrong. Anyone got a better take on the level 3 for the assassin?

At the very least, I think it would be very difficult, but perhaps not totally impossible. The problem of trying to squeeze every possible "well, these two are pretty similar" class-fantasies into such a small, fixed set. There will always be examples like this, where the squeeze is too tight.

I am fairly well convinced that D&D actually has somewhere between 18 and 24 full class-fantasy concepts in it. 5e has done what it can to make do with only thirteen (and that only because they actually did relent and add Artificer, due to Eberron being so dependent on them.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think we can talk about surprise murder and combat without talking about damage per se. Which is why the idea of an applied condition makes some sense to me. If the target was stunned or frightened or incapacitated or unconscious or poisoned (poisoner's kit again!) or grappled or got their speed reduced to 0, that might be enough of a lasting effect to feel like, maybe I didn't kill them, but I messed them up. Even if it only lasts until the end of next turn. D&D combats are fast enough that if I catch a guard alone and she spends the next turn stunned, she's going down between me and my offscreen buddies. That feels right for an assassin.

Cuz that's Batman, baybee!

More to the point, that's if the assassin is allowed to surprise targets by their party, if they do it successfully, and if they hit. The Swashbuckler gets to basically not think about how to get SA and rarely has to use disengage.

There's a bunch of big IFs and "DM-May-I"s in Assassin-land that make things kind of frustrating. Even just moving stealth and poison out of skill checks and into features could be a big help. Something like:

• At the end of any short rest, you can apply poison to one weapon of your choice. The next time you hit with that weapon, it deals 1d4 poison damage in addition to its normal effects, and the target must make a CON save (DC 8 + your prof bonus + your dex bonus) or be poisoned for 1 minute. (this feature has expansion potential - higher level assassins make "poisons" that cause an array of different statuses or deal bigger dice of damage. I know the DMG has some poisons you could use, but it's another DM-May-I element that we're bypassing with this feature.)
• When you roll initiative, all creatures of your choice in the initiative roll are surprised by you, until the end of your first turn.

 

[Kurotowa]

I think I fixated on the suggest that the feature deal more bonus damage and spiraled off from there. Sorry if that was at a tangent from your main concern. What you're talking about seems to be an issue of two parts. One is what your image of an "Assassin" looks like that you feel the Rogue subclass should deliver on, and the other is when in the level progression that image should be fully realized.

I think that part of the problem is that Rogue is one of the classes with the weakest subclass budget. Rogue subclasses features are few and far between, and often don't even have a full level's budget to work with because of the ongoing Sneak Attack advancement. So there's a lot less room for Rogue subclasses to assert their personal identity the way that, say, Artificer subclasses do. And this is by design.

Different classes strike a different balance between class and subclass. Personally, I prefer the ones where the subclass has enough budget to cement a clear identity. But there's also room for ones like Rogue and Paladin where the subclass is more of a light topping than a core pillar. Even though it makes it harder for an Assassin Rogue to clearly delineate their differences from a Thief Rogue or a Swashbuckler Rogue.

Still, I think it gets there in the end. Especially with the improved UA6 version over the PHB'14 version. It just isn't there at 3rd level. And honestly, who is? Eldritch Knights don't get their signature feature until 7th level. All a Draconic Sorcerer got is a language, a little extra HP, and some free light armor. Yes, some subclasses get their defining trait right away and build on it from there. But not all of them, and it's a bit unfair to expect all of them to live up to the name from the very start.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think we can talk about surprise murder and combat without talking about damage per se. Which is why the idea of an applied condition makes some sense to me. If the target was stunned or frightened or incapacitated or unconscious or poisoned (poisoner's kit again!) or grappled or got their speed reduced to 0, that might be enough of a lasting effect to feel like, maybe I didn't kill them, but I messed them up. Even if it only lasts until the end of next turn. D&D combats are fast enough that if I catch a guard alone and she spends the next turn stunned, she's going down between me and my offscreen buddies. That feels right for an assassin.

Cuz that's Batman, baybee!

Right, give batman a dagger and a willingness to kill and he's a master assassin.

Applying conditions is good, and I'd add exploiting them as well. You can sneak attack a poisoned, frightened, grappled target without needing the normal requirements.

Another idea I like is to mark a target and gain utility benefits against them, including being able to sneak attack them as above. Maybe it's advantage on checks to track, find, eavesdrop on, deceive, intimidate, and charm, and something that is useful in combat that isn't damage, like being able to OA them with more triggers.

There's a bunch of big IFs and "DM-May-I"s in Assassin-land that make things kind of frustrating. Even just moving stealth and poison out of skill checks and into features could be a big help. Something like:

• At the end of any short rest, you can apply poison to one weapon of your choice. The next time you hit with that weapon, it deals 1d4 poison damage in addition to its normal effects, and the target must make a CON save (DC 8 + your prof bonus + your dex bonus) or be poisoned for 1 minute. (this feature has expansion potential - higher level assassins make "poisons" that cause an array of different statuses or deal bigger dice of damage. I know the DMG has some poisons you could use, but it's another DM-May-I element that we're bypassing with this feature.)
• When you roll initiative, all creatures of your choice in the initiative roll are surprised by you, until the end of your first turn.

I think you'd have to pick a single target to give the surprised condition to, and yeah if poison is the angle, actually make it the angle. Basically the poisoner feat with less of a damage buff, and maybe crafting poison rules based on the listed price for a poison, where you learn how to make two more poisons, and you can make poisons in half the time, at level 9, etc.

But yeah I'm optimistic that the revised rules will be a bit less dependant on DM buy in, and more player facing and more something the players can actively make use of and know pretty much what they're doing.

I think I fixated on the suggest that the feature deal more bonus damage and spiraled off from there. Sorry if that was at a tangent from your main concern.

All good, thanks for acknowledging that.

What you're talking about seems to be an issue of two parts. One is what your image of an "Assassin" looks like that you feel the Rogue subclass should deliver on, and the other is when in the level progression that image should be fully realized.

I think that part of the problem is that Rogue is one of the classes with the weakest subclass budget. Rogue subclasses features are few and far between, and often don't even have a full level's budget to work with because of the ongoing Sneak Attack advancement. So there's a lot less room for Rogue subclasses to assert their personal identity the way that, say, Artificer subclasses do. And this is by design.

Yes, I'm fully aware of all this, however the thief and swashbuckler and even super weak sauce inquisitive, all become thier archetype at level 3. If the assassin cannot do that, it shouldn't be a rogue subclass.

Different classes strike a different balance between class and subclass. Personally, I prefer the ones where the subclass has enough budget to cement a clear identity. But there's also room for ones like Rogue and Paladin where the subclass is more of a light topping than a core pillar. Even though it makes it harder for an Assassin Rogue to clearly delineate their differences from a Thief Rogue or a Swashbuckler Rogue.

Still, I think it gets there in the end. Especially with the improved UA6 version over the PHB'14 version. It just isn't there at 3rd level. And honestly, who is? Eldritch Knights don't get their signature feature until 7th level. All a Draconic Sorcerer got is a language, a little extra HP, and some free light armor. Yes, some subclasses get their defining trait right away and build on it from there. But not all of them, and it's a bit unfair to expect all of them to live up to the name from the very start.

Getting there at level 13 means the subclass doesn't do it's job. It has failed.

The archetype isn't "super awesome master assassin", it's just "assassin". It has to get there when it is chosen in order to not be a failed subclass.