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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 9257882" data-attributes="member: 20323">Yeah, I'm only familiar with 2014 version. I've stopped paying as much attention to the playtests.You may have more experience with the Assassin Rogue at your tables &amp; I'm positive you have more experience analyzing player-facing stuff than me (I usually focus on GM side things), so I'm inclined to trust your perspective that the Assassin Rogue has shortcomings.Also, I really like some of the ideas you and [USER=2067]@I'm A Banana[/USER] have been ping-ponging like allowing the Assassin to apply Sneak Attack when an enemy is afflicted by certain conditions. Or the idea of it being easier for the Assassin to stay hidden while moving through crowds. I think that's a very elegant &amp; flavorful design approach.I do want to reply specifically to the part I highlighted because it speaks to the larger play style that I think exacerbates/creates some of the Assassin Rogue issues you're describing... Gaining surprise does not always require a Stealth check in my games, sometimes players do it automatically thanks to clever play like another player distracting a guard or the rogue player approaching with disguise.I also play with groups where there is less of that &quot;combat? combat? where? we've all got to get involved right now!&quot; attitude, and players give each other some slack to try stuff and take the spotlight.Even when I do call for a Stealth check, a PC with modest Stealth optimizing will usually beat the passive Perception of the monster IME. The exceptions tend to be monsters with Tremorsense or unusual senses, or monsters with both Perception proficiency and Keen Senses that apply in the situation.So it's more about some clever thinking up front, and then &quot;if they hit (with advantage)&quot;...which is kind of what it should be right?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 9257882, member: 20323"] Yeah, I'm only familiar with 2014 version. I've stopped paying as much attention to the playtests. You may have more experience with the Assassin Rogue at your tables & I'm positive you have more experience analyzing player-facing stuff than me (I usually focus on GM side things), so I'm inclined to trust your perspective that the Assassin Rogue has shortcomings. Also, I really like some of the ideas you and [USER=2067]@I'm A Banana[/USER] have been ping-ponging like allowing the Assassin to apply Sneak Attack when an enemy is afflicted by certain conditions. Or the idea of it being easier for the Assassin to stay hidden while moving through crowds. I think that's a very elegant & flavorful design approach. I do want to reply specifically to the part I [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]highlighted[/COLOR] because it speaks to the larger play style that I think exacerbates/creates some of the Assassin Rogue issues you're describing... Gaining surprise does not always require a Stealth check in my games, sometimes players do it automatically thanks to clever play like another player distracting a guard or the rogue player approaching with disguise. I also play with groups where there is less of that "combat? combat? where? we've all got to get involved right now!" attitude, and players give each other some slack to try stuff and take the spotlight. Even when I do call for a Stealth check, a PC with modest Stealth optimizing will usually beat the passive Perception of the monster IME. The exceptions tend to be monsters with Tremorsense or unusual senses, or monsters with both Perception proficiency and Keen Senses that apply in the situation. So it's more about some clever thinking up front, and then "if they hit (with advantage)"...which is kind of what it should be right? [/QUOTE]

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