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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 9261180" data-attributes="member: 2629">I would characterize it as efficient, for the time, but a long shot from optimized.  I could do a heck of a lot better ... although I would never go 100% rogue on any optimized build.  The class, in general, is weaker than other classes.  The most important round of any combat is the first - and taking a meaningful foe out before it can act is a huge contribution.  As mentioned, DM playstyle will impact the ability to get surprise.  However, if you, as a player, made it clear to the DM that your PC was trying to scout and be stealthy so that the party could get a surprise round, and your PC has reasonable stats for doing so, and you failed to ever get surprise in years of D&D, there are only three options:1.) That DM didn't allow it and likely could use some suggestions to improve their game, 2.) You are a $%&#-poor tactician [as in sneaking while holding a lit lamp in a dark setting, casting guidance on yourself as you are hidden around the corner and in ear shot, relying upon darkness for concealment when attacking things with darkvision, etc...], or3.) You have amazingly bad luck (not rolling about a 5(?) in years of stealth checks].Seriously.  If you've got a significant other, try sneaking up on them.  You'll find it isn't that hard - at all - to sneak up on someone that is not focused on you.  The game core mechanics reflect this truth.  The mechanics are a bit vague, but the core ideas come through and I see pretty consistent interpretation on the part of DMs.  A typical first level rogue has a +7 to stealth as it is the most common expertise choice.  That means that the typical monster with a passive perception of 10 is only get to spot them coming 10 or 15% of the time depending upon how the DM rules the check (in other words - who the tie benefits).  The rogue should know the enemy is there, even before the can see the enemy, unless the enemy is hiding or a special circumstance arises.  The 1st level rogue - when trying - should almost always be able to surprise someone.Now, if you don't try to be sneaky, then you should never get surprise.  Unless you're hidden, you teleport in, or the DM rules you're too far away to be automatically detected, you should not get a surprise round (generally).  However - in every game in which I've played, the group (usually at my suggestion if nobody else raises it first) will attempt to be stealthy and get surprise rounds ... and with dozens and dozens of DMs in the 5E era as evidence - DMs rarely, if ever, don't give us a fair chance.I will also note that certain allies may make it impossible too.  I did play in games with PCs that either thought sneaking around was dishonorable, or it was fun to let the enemy know we were coming to scare them, or just enjoyed being brash.  However, that tends to be the exception - not the norm.Just being honest here - if you've never been able to sneak and get a surprise round in years and years of D&D, it calls into question your understanding of the game.  It should jump out to you that there is a significant, and often discussed, mechanic in the game intended to be available to every party - and you never see it used.  That should have been a red flag every time you saw someone write anything about surprise.  That is akin to not realizing your car doesn't have seat belts after driving it for several years.</blockquote>

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