Why is the Vancian system still so popular?

[Ahnehnois]

Why is this system so preferred in comparison to the AEDU(Powers) system? Especially if its likely the new Vancian system will allow for At-Will abilities anyway?

Beyond the traditionalism that others have noted, the Vancian system is preferred relative to the power system for other reasons. First and foremost, it applies only to spellcasters, whereas the power system applies to all characters. Sure, Vancian magic is hackneyed and arbitrary, but at least it made spellcasters feel like they were doing something out of the ordinary. Different characters having different mechanics is really important.

Second, while you've correctly noted that while many people like Vancian plus at-will abilities, the "per encounter" business is a hangup for a lot of people, because defining an encounter is a conceptual problem.

The flexibility of a Vancian wizard is also much greater than that of any 4e character, and while some complained, many players enjoyed strategizing using their endless repotoire of spells derived from twenty different supplements.

Moreover, the power system fixes none of the substantive problems with Vancian magic. You still have enormous complexity. You still have abilities that never fail, backfire, or harm the user. You still have recovery of abilities over time as the major balancing factor.

The real question to me is why Vancian is preferred over some point-based system, or one that (gasp!) isn't predicated on limiting magical use by some arbitrary resource that recovers over time but instead having substantive costs (or no direct costs, as the 3e warlock). That, I think, is a combination of traditionalism and stylistic issues.

 

[FireLance]

Second, while you've correctly noted that while many people like Vancian plus at-will abilities, the "per encounter" business is a hangup for a lot of people, because defining an encounter is a conceptual problem.

While defining an encounter may be problematic, the definition of an encounter power is not. It's a power that you get back after a short rest, in the same way that a daily power is one that you get back after an extended rest. No rest, no recharge; it's as simple as that.

In fact, it's so simple that it sometimes seems to me that people who keep getting it wrong despite having it pointed out to them several times must be deliberately and wilfully trying to make other people misunderstand.

 

[Bluenose]

Beyond the traditionalism that others have noted, the Vancian system is preferred relative to the power system for other reasons. First and foremost, it applies only to spellcasters, whereas the power system applies to all characters. Sure, Vancian magic is hackneyed and arbitrary, but at least it made spellcasters feel like they were doing something out of the ordinary. Different characters having different mechanics is really important.

Why?

It seems far more likely that a spellcaster will feel they're doing something out of the ordinary by having them do something out of the ordinary. The mechanic by which that's achieved is not remotely as significant. Observe the rather large number of games where spell casting is a skill like any other, and inquire of the players of those games whether spellcasters feel like they're doing something out of the ordinary. I suspect that you'll find people who think that being able to fly without wings is just a little unusual, regardless of how it's achieved.

 

[Gargoyle]

Nostalgia sure, but more than that, strategic selection of spells is fun for some people. Part of the fun of playing a wizard used to be having the right spell at the right time. The player felt smart when they chose something like Comprehend Languages and it saved the day. Or perhaps a better example, something non-ritually like using Cone of Cold on a fire elemental.

 

[paladinm]

Personally, even back in the OD&D/ 1e days, I always tried to think up alternative magic systems. Back then, spells were "memorized" and then "forgotten". I could never understand this; wizards were supposed to be the sharpest knives in the drawer! When 3.x came out, I could get my head around spells being "prepared" a little easier; but then I saw the 3.x Sorcerer. I Love spontaneous casting, and would have that as the default magic system if I had my druthers. You have flexibility and resource management; but you're not stuck with only a Web spell when you desperately need a Magic Missile.

 

[Wiseblood]

When I play a wizard I want it to be different from the fighter in more than just the effect of my powers.

 

[Minigiant]

Nostalgia. Vancian is a well recognizdd part of D&D. It is also really easy to record. Just write and erase the words. No math needed once the character sheet is updated to the level and equipment.

My issue is why some don't want to see anything except Vancian for spellcasters and see spell point, at-will, and recharge mechanics as evil abominations.

Although I like Vancian, it feels weird for non scientific spellcasters. Characters like sorcerer and fey, who are natural caster look weird as Vancians. Even warlocks who steal/borrow/infusedwith magic feel off with spell slots.

 

[dkyle]

The problem with 3rd ed and the 15 minute advanturing day was, IMHO, that groups tended to blow their biggest spells on the first combat encounter and than head back to rest. That was because the game design was focused on the combat encounter and not the advanture itself which lead to each combat encounter trying to be bad ass because if it wasn't the group would just brush it away with no serious consequences (I'm looking at you city of the spider queen).

This is a natural result of Daily-heavy design. Unless there are actual mechanics in 5E to enforce standard adventure-day lengths, the exact same thing is likely to occur. 3.5 was not an Encounter-based design. It was a Day-based design. I very much doubt that 5E will truly be Adventure-based design. Sure, there might be Adventure creation rules along the lines of 3.X/4E Encounter creation rules, but if there's traditional Vancian casting, then it's really Day-based design.

The problem is that resting for a night is an incredibly overpowered action, by the rules. There are enormous benefits outlined by the rules, with negligible downside. It is left to the DM to try to balance the game, against players that have every natural incentive to rest as often as possible.

Any other mechanic that powerful, that relied solely on DM fiat to reign in, and I think most would call it a broken mechanic. But a night's rest gets a pass. I don't think it should.

I think the best way to do it is to have most daily resources be based on a point system, and for the DM to get points to spend too. If the players rest, then so does "the world", and the DM gets his points back. But since that probably wouldn't "feel" like DnD, it won't happen.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is the best magic system i have ever encountered (besides spells and magic spell point vancian variant).

1. You have a lot of spells to select. Each day begins with making informed choices. It is a bit of preparing for the unoreoareable, a bit general good choices and a bit of adapting to the task at hand.

It is both flexible and unflexible: sneaking through something? sure, have an invisibility spell, but maybe you didn´t prepare one, so the rogue has to get along without it.

2. Spells themselves are flexible: Need a hole in a wall? Stone to flesh, disintegrate, stone shape... etc. Spells are useful in and out of combat.

3. Hunting for spells to expand your spellbook.

I really don´t mind AEDU, and I like the addition of rituals. And I guess, that both will have a place in 5e (at least AED and Rituals). I just believe, both attack and utility spells need to be both prepared as classic spells or as rituals. Having a division between them is quite metagamey.
Also only having the choice between 1 of 2 different spells does not really allow for making informed choices. It is rather a strategic choice you make when levelling up, not in game, and this is IMHO one of the biggest flaws of both 3rd and 4th edition.

Both fighter and wizard should be able to gather combat techniques/spells that are not tied to level advancement. Why should the fighter not be able to learn another at-will? It makes him just a bit more flexible, not a great lot more powerful. Especially when the alternative would be finding magic items. The same goes for the wizard: Would the 4e wizard really be imbalanced, if he could learn 4, 5 or even 10 at-wills?

 

[illwizard]

Mechanics aside, I just reckon it's cool having to pore over a bunch of dusty old tomes to find and study the right spells for whatever lay ahead.

I also actually enjoyed having the wrong spells and being original in how I used them, or saving my Melf's Acid Arrow (sometimes to the detriment of the party oops) just in case that troll showed up. I suppose you can still claim this happens in 4e, but it lost a bit of the magic for me.

I certainly understand why people don't like economising and preparation et cetera but for me... I love Vancian!