Why is the Vancian system still so popular?

[Tony Vargas]

overall issue, it's that we're a roleplay heavy group in a combat heavy game. In too many cases, the characters are held back mechanically by their roleplay decisions. Things like the paladin not wearing platemail, and the rogue never taking a second wind.

I don't see how taking or not taking second wind is exactly an RP decision. Is he just terribly aggressive or something?

Two things about the paladin eschewing platemail:

1) Optimizer observation: Why not just play an Avenger?

2) Something that's been bugging me forever: Armor dependency. Armor just is not a must-have in very much fantasy fiction. Knights in shining armor are a cliche, sure, and a nice image, so the option of wearing armor certainly makes sense, and it should have some benefit. But, it shouldn't be a must, and armor or no armor shouldn't be dictated by something as basic as class. If the Paladin wasn't forced to wear heavy armor, the Avenger would be downright redundant. Well, more redundant. If fighters weren't forced into heavy armor (and forced to be incompetent out of combat), there'd be no problem coming up with swashbuckler and duelist type characters.

 

[Daztur]

Armor dependency can be annoying, not so much for genre emulation reasons for me (see Conan's speech about how much he values wearing heavy armor), but because it makes fighters (who I like to play like modern action stars) the clumsiest members of the party and takes a lot of cool action hero stunts that are fun to play off the table. Sucks to have a fighter who's worse than the party wizard at swinging from chandeliers and whatnot.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah. Armor's not nearly that debilitating for, say, Athletics in 4e, than it was for a 3e fighter trying to separately keep up Climb, Jump, and Swim. The penalty is lower, and there are way to further reduce it beyond just getting armor made of some fantastically expensive material. But, it's still head to toe metal, which does not fit for some character concepts. The solution of cleaving off a whole class just to be a 'light armored' version was never attractive, and in 4e (because classes didn't share power lists) burdensome to the developer.

Interestingly, in AD&D, heavy armor was only inconvenient at low levels. Once you got the magic stuff it was pretty easy-wearing.

 

[Daztur]

Yeah 3.Xed was the most punitive to heavy armor since it was the only one that gave much of a about that kind of realism.

 

[Zustiur]

I don't see how taking or not taking second wind is exactly an RP decision. Is he just terribly aggressive or something?

Two things about the paladin eschewing platemail:

1) Optimizer observation: Why not just play an Avenger?

Not taking second wind can be an RP decision - the character becomes so focussed in combat that she forgets about her own health. She has to literally be ordered to heal herself, otherwise she'll just keep fighting. Especially if her brother (the paladin) is in any sort of trouble.

Likewise with the paladin himself; the player's intention was to play up the halfling's agility by having an agile paladin, but that really doesn't work well in a typical 4E game. Everything about him is paladinic, except for eschewing plate, and for being stupid enough to push on in pursuit of a single orc when the party is badly wounded. He's nothing like an avenger in other ways.
Also, this game started the month after the books were released, so Avengers didn't come out for a long time after.

 

[Akaiku]

Likewise with the paladin himself; the player's intention was to play up the halfling's agility by having an agile paladin, but that really doesn't work well in a typical 4E game. Everything about him is paladinic, except for eschewing plate, and for being stupid enough to push on in pursuit of a single orc when the party is badly wounded. He's nothing like an avenger in other ways.

What other ways? A palidin is a holy warrior in plate. A pursuit avenger is a holy warrior in cloth who runs after that one orc whilst his party gets knocked around. And happens to be dex/wis.

He's a pali in the high cha way? In the lay on hands way?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Everything about him is paladinic, except for eschewing plate, and for being stupid enough to push on in pursuit of a single orc when the party is badly wounded.

That sounds exactly like an Avenger.

It's one of the long-standing weaknesses of D&D that it takes an entirely different class to model a concept, but without armor (or with armor). Fighters are fine. Fighter without much armor? Uh, we'll have to kludge together some kind of 'duelist,' maybe? Paladins are OK. Paladin without armor, er.. have an Avenger. Wizards are a little broken, we can't possibly have them in armor... etc, etc...

It makes a lot less sense now that heaviest armor no longer equates to best AC.

Also, this game started the month after the books were released, so Avengers didn't come out for a long time after.

OK, that I can see.

 

[dagger]

Because it works.

Yes it does

 

[Tallifer]

One problem with Vancian magic arises in sandbox games. The party rarely has to have more than one or two encounters in one day, so the wizard is usually fully charged and able to dominate an encounter.


(Now of course this negative thought may just arise from the peculiar circumstances of a campaign I recently suffered wherein the dungeon master gave different experience points according to contribution: the wizard therefore got more experience points every session. There were all sorts of other crazy unfair things happening in that campaign, so perhaps in a better run sandbox, Vancian magic is not such an issue.)

 

[Eric Tolle]

Yeah 3.Xed was the most punitive to heavy armor since it was the only one that gave much of a about that kind of realism.

Pretty much whenever there was anything that was "realistic" and punitive, it was designed to screw over the martial classes. Magic Users get screwed over, or even get any of the limitations they had in AD&D? Naaah, It's Maaaagick!

I honestly think that the designers of 3rd Edition must have been beaten up by jocks in school.