Why is the Vancian system still so popular?

[Crazy Jerome]

Like? We haven't encountered any issues save people sometimes getting confused about how many points they have left.

The people that are really gung ho about particular systems seldom have any issues with them, at least not that they are aware of--probably due to a particular playstyle. If you think you have a great solution, throw it out there and defend it.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

I prefer Vancian casting, because when I think D&D, that is what I think of.

It feels like D&D.

This guy is correct. To me, that's all there should be to this discussion.

 

[Incenjucar]

This guy is correct. To me, that's all there should be to this discussion.

While true, it's something that will always be brought up, since the system is pretty weird within fantasy, and a lot of people can't slip into the Fiddler on the Roof mentality.

Indeed, if they can keep non-Vancian casters in D&D long enough, Vancian casting may get phased out naturally by the audience once the Vancian-only generations have passed, though by definition none of us will live so long to see that.

 

[Janaxstrus]

While true, it's something that will always be brought up, since the system is pretty weird within fantasy, and a lot of people can't slip into the Fiddler on the Roof mentality.

Indeed, if they can keep non-Vancian casters in D&D long enough, Vancian casting may get phased out naturally by the audience once the Vancian-only generations have passed, though by definition none of us will live so long to see that.

Don't worry, I've been teaching the younger generations how to play 3.5 and the wonder and majesty of the Vancian system.

 

[Ranganathan]

Vancian casting is still popular for a few reasons.

1. Versatility. In older editions you had a large spell list to chose from on a daily basis and you could pick which spells to memorize. In 4th, by contrast, you have a set list of spells that you cast over and over.

2. Utility. In older editions you had many non-combat spells that could be used in interesting ways to perform often off the wall things, and create synergies with other spells or other casters. In 4th, to contrast, you have utility spells which largely fall into rather dull categories of static bonuses for a round, spend a surge, or free movement.

It's not a distinction between at-will, encounter, etc vs Vancian, it's a distinction between the feeling of stasis / set lists / non-choices / and sameness vs feeling magic is dynamic / players have agency / control / and the ability to improvise. With 4th, despite many of it's improvements in places, you simply don't have the range of possibilities available under Vancian casting.

I for one would welcome the improvisation and synergies of Vancian casting along with the magic-user not running out of magic set up of at-wills. With Vancian I can cast one spell to form a rain cloud in a room, cast another spell to transform that water into something flammable, then toss a torch into the room. I can't even come close to that in 4th. It's not about nuking an encounter, it's about creative thinking and out smarting parts of the adventure as players. Damn I miss that.

Don't get me wrong, 4E did fix a few things, but it went way too far in fixing them. It fixed the wizards running out of magic problem and the 15-minute work day by ripping the heart out of players' ability to improvise with magic. Something that still fixes the crossbow wizard and the 15-minute work day while retaining the players' ability to pull off amazing things at the same time? Pure win and perfection.

 

[Umbran]

A wizard can learn to inject a spell into a potion but no one thought of a way to turn their hand into a reloadable magic wand?

Or, the other way to look at it is that someone thought to try, but the game universe doesn't allow that.

Folks forget that magical traditions follow rules and have limitations - "magic" does not equate to, "can accomplish anything I can conceive."

 

[Minigiant]

Or, the other way to look at it is that someone thought to try, but the game universe doesn't allow that.

Folks forget that magical traditions follow rules and have limitations - "magic" does not equate to, "can accomplish anything I can conceive."

Considering that those magical traditions and arcane rules are written by a bunch of role playing and fantasy fans, I don't get it still.

 

[Kynn]

Cuz if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There's a strong argument to be made that Vancian spellcasting as presented in D&D is, indeed, broken -- and thus in need of fixing.

 

[Blackwarder]

This is a natural result of Daily-heavy design. Unless there are actual mechanics in 5E to enforce standard adventure-day lengths, the exact same thing is likely to occur. 3.5 was not an Encounter-based design. It was a Day-based design. I very much doubt that 5E will truly be Adventure-based design. Sure, there might be Adventure creation rules along the lines of 3.X/4E Encounter creation rules, but if there's traditional Vancian casting, then it's really Day-based design.

The problem is that resting for a night is an incredibly overpowered action, by the rules. There are enormous benefits outlined by the rules, with negligible downside. It is left to the DM to try to balance the game, against players that have every natural incentive to rest as often as possible.

Any other mechanic that powerful, that relied solely on DM fiat to reign in, and I think most would call it a broken mechanic. But a night's rest gets a pass. I don't think it should.

I think the best way to do it is to have most daily resources be based on a point system, and for the DM to get points to spend too. If the players rest, then so does "the world", and the DM gets his points back. But since that probably wouldn't "feel" like DnD, it won't happen.

We are talking about D&D, in the end a good game needs a good DM to run it, if you want to play a game that got rules for every thing including how the DM should act than look no further than WotC advanture board games...

IMHO, what the game need is to teach the DMs to manage those risks, how to build advantures that reward active exploring instead of turteling every 15 minutes, one of the ways to do just that IMO is to build the advanture with a broader scoop in mind so that each combat won't be a grindfest but part of an whole that slowly tax the party resources, couple that with repercussion for not pushing forward. For example, "you come back the next day to find that the kobolds rigged the entrance to collapse when big folks such as yourself walk the floor" or "just when the moon dip into the horizons you feel piercing cold sealing into your bones, you wake up in a start to find that three wraiths have risen through your tents from the crypt bellow"

My point is, what's wrong with encouraging the DMs to build more thought about advantures?

Warder

 

[am181d]

IMHO, what the game need is to teach the DMs to manage those risks, how to build advantures that reward active exploring instead of turteling every 15 minutes, one of the ways to do just that IMO is to build the advanture with a broader scoop in mind so that each combat won't be a grindfest but part of an whole that slowly tax the party resources, couple that with repercussion for not pushing forward. For example, "you come back the next day to find that the kobolds rigged the entrance to collapse when big folks such as yourself walk the floor" or "just when the moon dip into the horizons you feel piercing cold sealing into your bones, you wake up in a start to find that three wraiths have risen through your tents from the crypt bellow"

There are two main techniques that I use to address this issue:

1) a sense of urgency (PCs aren't going to stop to rest casually if they're being hunted or if they're on a quest with an urgent objective)
2) DM initiated encounters (particularly in overland and city-based adventures, I'm the one deciding when encounters happen)

Of course, I rarely if ever run extended dungeon delves. In the games I run, generally once you're in the "dungeon" you have a few chained encounters and you're done without a lot of opportunity for breathing in between.