D&D 5E Why is there a limit to falling damage?

[Flamestrike]

Attacking a sleeping target is covered by the rules. It's an attack with advantage, and if you hit, its an automatic critical hit.

It's not 'auto-kill'. Your victim is entitled to rely on his HP to survive the blow.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, in reply to the thread at large and the assassin example being argued, I'd like to just say, the dagger starts hurting before it gets to your heart, and your twitch response is very fast.

So, while I'd certainly have the sleeper take some damage, I wouldn't allow an insta-kill unless they were magically restrained in addition to being asleep, or under a sleep effect that damage doesn't automatically end.


See, these things sound like a good argument for the ability to train new skill and save proficiencies as you level. I can't see how it's a good argument for those things increasing automatically, for everyone, however.

WOuldn't it more reasonably be "Your character is dying."?

Since the dagger attack is already underway, I doubt your twitch response will be fast enough to stop the person who is in the act of stabbing you.

Now, people do get stabbed in the heart and live. So, no, while the damage would rather be extreme, if the target has sufficient HP, it doesn't have to be an insta-killl.

To the other issue, you use a lot of skills and proficiencies and 5E has no mechanic for training them all that get used.

And finally, not if the player made the call because their character had enough HP to know they would survive, then it would be "Ok, your character is dead. Happy?"

Case in point. In our session yesterday our PCs used Dimension Door to land on top of an adult red dragon that was flying over 60 ft above during the battle. After failing checks, or being knocked unconscious, some PCs fell from the dragon's back, taking 20d6 damage when they landed. Now, since most of the PCs have over 100 hp, the fall resulted in being knocked out (if not unconscious already) or a failed death save. These were not PCs taking the risks because the players metagamed. Since each time you go to 0 hp, you gain a level of exhaustion at our table, the battle ended with most of characters having 2-4 levels of exhaustion each. For the player whose PC had 4 levels, he was REALLY starting to sweat! We ended up using half-a-dozen Mass Cure Wounds spells, just to keep everyone from taking auto-failed death saves.

Anyway, the point is when players metagame, throw the mechanics out the window and narrate as you see fit. I see fit to say, "Ok, your character is dead. Happy?"

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Since the dagger attack is already underway, I doubt your twitch response will be fast enough to stop the person who is in the act of stabbing you.

Now, people do get stabbed in the heart and live. So, no, while the damage would rather be extreme, if the target has sufficient HP, it doesn't have to be an insta-killl.

To the other issue, you use a lot of skills and proficiencies and 5E has no mechanic for training them all that get used.

And finally, not if the player made the call because their character had enough HP to know they would survive, then it would be "Ok, your character is dead. Happy?"

Case in point. In our session yesterday our PCs used Dimension Door to land on top of an adult red dragon that was flying over 60 ft above during the battle. After failing checks, or being knocked unconscious, some PCs fell from the dragon's back, taking 20d6 damage when they landed. Now, since most of the PCs have over 100 hp, the fall resulted in being knocked out (if not unconscious already) or a failed death save. These were not PCs taking the risks because the players metagamed. Since each time you go to 0 hp, you gain a level of exhaustion at our table, the battle ended with most of characters having 2-4 levels of exhaustion each. For the player whose PC had 4 levels, he was REALLY starting to sweat! We ended up using half-a-dozen Mass Cure Wounds spells, just to keep everyone from taking auto-failed death saves.

Anyway, the point is when players metagame, throw the mechanics out the window and narrate as you see fit. I see fit to say, "Ok, your character is dead. Happy?"

We have little common ground, because I don't share the perspective that metagaming is bad.

That said, stabbing a moving target in the heart is actually very hard. The ribs don't exactly have a wide gap. A character with Alert, for instance, I'd simply roll initiative, and if the the sleeper wins they feel a pressence above them before the dagger even touches them. A character without Alert would take some damage even if they win initiative, but would still get to react to feeling a prick in their skin, rather than reacting to the intense and terrible pain of a blade sliding into their ribcage.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To the other issue, you use a lot of skills and proficiencies and 5E has no mechanic for training them all that get used.

Right, and I'm saying you've made a good argument for expanding the training rules. Possibly including to add automatic training at certain levels. eg, a very quick rough draft, "At level 11, all characters can choose to gain proficiency in one saving throw, or add half thier proficiency modifier to two saving throws in which they aren't proficient. Characters can also do the same for 1 skill or tool, or two weapons or armor, and gain proficiency in them as well. You can choose new [name of feature]s at level 15, and again at level 19."

 

[Imaculata]

I would allow it. If the barbarian has enough hp, he survives. But he might break his legs and be in terrible pain.

 

[Lanefan]

But this is D&D. You can't just put your sword in somebody. To do that, first you roll initiative. Then, on your turn, you make an attack roll. If the attack hits, you roll damage, and even then, you don't really know if your sword has entered the target's body unless it kills them. Also, I have no idea why you've specified a PC here. Why should that make a difference (if you think it should)? Also, why should that be what wakes him up? Haven't you ever seen a movie or read a story in which the hero wakes up before being murdered in his sleep?

Rulings not rules, old chap.

Here, a DM could (and IMO should) give the sleeping target a longshot roll (say, 20 on a d20) to just by chance happen to wake up as the attacker approaches (the odds here could be improved, perhaps greatly, if the attacker fails to be sneaky in approaching the target). If this roll succeeds then it's initiative as normal and away you go. But if this roll fails then I'd say the attacker gets a free attack before ever entering initiative, and that this free attack has at least some chance (maybe, say, by rolling 10 higher than needed to hit) of bypassing hit points and going straight to kill.

And people can't really sleep in any armour heavier than leather, thus the target is almost certainly lightly armoured if at all.

Good thing that doesn't happen in my game. Because you were careful to be sneaky, he's surprised, so even if he wins initiative, he can't attack you before you attack him.

Silly question, but if the target can't attack first even if it wins initiative then why bother rolling at all at that point? The attacker's first attack is a freebie, and then init comes in.

So if your swing misses, you get to keep trying until it hits? No, thank you.

No, of course not. All the special stuff only applies to the attacker's first swing, with a very unlikely (but also very possible!) exception where the attacker misses so badly that the target sleeps right through it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

We have little common ground, because I don't share the perspective that metagaming is bad.

That said, stabbing a moving target in the heart is actually very hard. The ribs don't exactly have a wide gap. A character with Alert, for instance, I'd simply roll initiative, and if the the sleeper wins they feel a pressence above them before the dagger even touches them. A character without Alert would take some damage even if they win initiative, but would still get to react to feeling a prick in their skin, rather than reacting to the intense and terrible pain of a blade sliding into their ribcage.

LOL @doctorbadwolf I know we have little common ground (it has been that way between us for a while now ) but that is cool with me. I respect your input and style, despite our "creative" differences.

Maybe I missed something, but I thought the stabbing-the-heart-thing was about a sleeping target? I completely agree and awake and aware target would roll initiative, etc. as normal, and at this point the "stab in the heart" would only (possibly) come when the target was reduced to 0 hit points.

Right, and I'm saying you've made a good argument for expanding the training rules. Possibly including to add automatic training at certain levels. eg, a very quick rough draft, "At level 11, all characters can choose to gain proficiency in one saving throw, or add half thier proficiency modifier to two saving throws in which they aren't proficient. Characters can also do the same for 1 skill or tool, or two weapons or armor, and gain proficiency in them as well. You can choose new [name of feature]s at level 15, and again at level 19."

Thanks, I appreciate that. Because of the logic behind my points, over a year ago we added:

Which pretty closely mirrors some of your suggestions. What are your thoughts?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

LOL @doctorbadwolf I know we have little common ground (it has been that way between us for a while now ) but that is cool with me. I respect your input and style, despite our "creative" differences.

Maybe I missed something, but I thought the stabbing-the-heart-thing was about a sleeping target? I completely agree and awake and aware target would roll initiative, etc. as normal, and at this point the "stab in the heart" would only (possibly) come when the target was reduced to 0 hit points.


Thanks, I appreciate that. Because of the logic behind my points, over a year ago we added:

View attachment 123687

Which pretty closely mirrors some of your suggestions. What are your thoughts?

Right back at ya.

A sleeping target, yes, but I know I snap awake and am moving well before I’m actually awake if I feel pain while asleep. And I’m not accustomed (anymore) to expecting danger while asleep.

I’d use that, more or less. We give a +1 any time you pick a feat rather than an ASI, so I’d probably drop the stat bump, but other than that it’s pretty close to my initial thought.

I like it better than either 4e’s automatic everything bumps, or 5e’s “no gaining new skills or saves ever, unless you take a feat”.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Right back at ya.

A sleeping target, yes, but I know I snap awake and am moving well before I’m actually awake if I feel pain while asleep. And I’m not accustomed (anymore) to expecting danger while asleep.

I’d use that, more or less. We give a +1 any time you pick a feat rather than an ASI, so I’d probably drop the stat bump, but other than that it’s pretty close to my initial thought.

I like it better than either 4e’s automatic everything bumps, or 5e’s “no gaining new skills or saves ever, unless you take a feat”.

The problem with running 5E "simulation-style" is just things like this. People do die instantly from the shock of sudden, intense pain. Either way, 5E has no way to represent this at higher levels, hence part of the original point of this thread: the player knew it was mechanically impossible to die as max damage would be 120 points, which for any PC with max hp of 61 or better will never be fatal. Sure, it can knock you to 0 hp, and you might fail your death saves, but you are more likely than not to make them (about 60% IIRC). If the PC has 121 HP or more, they can actually "walk away from such a fall".

IMO, 5E would be a better game if death from such falls or being stabbed in the heart while sleeping were possible, even if the chances were 1 in 1000 or worse, but the fact is RAW metagaming players know at a certain point, they are immortal in such situations.

Anyway, as for the tier advancement stuff, we imagined it like a "3/4-feat" or so. Better than a simple ASI +1, but not as good as an ASI +2. For groups that roll stats, I would also remove the ASI bump, but make the first options maybe two skills, languages, etc.? If you use point-buy or the standard array, I found the ASI +1 really helps because players want to take feats, but you need some ASI bump to keep up with the threats IMO.

 

[Gammadoodler]

But this is D&D. You can't just put your sword in somebody. To do that, first you roll initiative. Then, on your turn, you make an attack roll. If the attack hits, you roll damage, and even then, you don't really know if your sword has entered the target's body unless it kills them. Also, I have no idea why you've specified a PC here. Why should that make a difference (if you think it should)? Also, why should that be what wakes him up? Haven't you ever seen a movie or read a story in which the hero wakes up before being murdered in his sleep?



Good thing that doesn't happen in my game. Because you were careful to be sneaky, he's surprised, so even if he wins initiative, he can't attack you before you attack him. It's almost as if the combat mechanics were meant to handle such situations!



I meant in the game of D&D. Whether your stab was quiet or not remains to be seen by applying the combat resolution mechanics. If the outcome is consistent with a quiet stab, then sure it could have been quiet. If not, then it wasn't.



That's a nice action declaration, but it doesn't make it so. Whether or not your sword gets anywhere near the orc's chest depends on the dice. Does your attack hit? Does it do enough damage to kill the orc? These questions can't be answered by your action declaration.


So if your swing misses, you get to keep trying until it hits? No, thank you.

So I think there is a relevant litmus test here. What is the mechanical difference between sneaking up and surprise attacking a conscious NPC and sneaking up and surprising an unconscious NPC?

If the answer is 'none', I think it's reasonable to ask if that makes sense.