Why no Quickened spontanious spells?

[Spatula]

I don't. I believe I am specifically prohibited from doing so.

I believe there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to, if I so wish. (Well, my character, obviously )

Is it worth a 4 spell level to turn a full round spell into a full round action? Probably not, but why ban it?

Applying metamagic to a spontaneous spell with a full-round casting time increases the casting time even further. So you'd be paying 4 spell levels to turn a full-round spell into a full-round spell + a full-round action, with no other benefit.

 

[glass]

Applying metamagic to a spontaneous spell with a full-round casting time increases the casting time even further. So you'd be paying 4 spell levels to turn a full-round spell into a full-round spell + a full-round action, with no other benefit.

But a quickened summon monster spell doesn't have a casting time of a full round action, it has a casting time of a standard action, which increases to a full round action due to the spontaneous metamagic rule.


glass.

 

[hong]

But a quickened summon monster spell doesn't have a casting time of a full round action, it has a casting time of a standard action, which increases to a full round action due to the spontaneous metamagic rule.


glass.

This is nonsense, on two counts:

1. By the letter of the rules, a spell with a normal casting time of 1 full round can't be quickened, whether by a sorc or anyone else. Asserting that a "quickened summoned monster spell ... has a casting time of a standard action" is patently false.

2. Even if you could quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 full round, a sorcerer would still be operating under the restriction that applying metamagic (any metamagic) increases the casting time by an extra full-round action. That's what the "Special" section under Quicken Spell is for.

 

[glass]

This is nonsense, on two counts:

1. By the letter of the rules, a spell with a normal casting time of 1 full round can't be quickened, whether by a sorc or anyone else. Asserting that a "quickened summoned monster spell ... has a casting time of a standard action" is patently false.

Ah, my mistake: I should have said free action, obviously. Doesn't alter the point though. A summon monster spell can be quickened, see below:

2. Even if you could quicken a spell with a casting time of 1 full round.

Which he can. From the SRD quote in wighair's first post (emphasis mine):

A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened...

...a sorcerer would still be operating under the restriction that applying metamagic (any metamagic) increases the casting time by an extra full-round action.

Almost correct. It increases the casting time from a free action to full round action.

 

[hong]

Almost correct. It increases the casting time from a free action to full round action.

No. Applying metamagic (any metamagic) to a spell with a casting time of a full round increases the casting time by another full round. You do not reduce the casting time, and then increase it again.

 

[glass]

No. Applying metamagic (any metamagic) to a spell with a casting time of a full round increases the casting time by another full round.

Correct. But a quickened summon monster doesn't have a casting time of 1 full round, it has a casting time of 1 free action, so that does not apply.

You do not reduce the casting time, and then increase it again.

That is exactly what you do.


glass.

 

[hong]

Correct. But a quickened summon monster doesn't have a casting time of 1 full round, it has a casting time of 1 free action, so that does not apply.

Exactly why do you think that "Special" section exists in the Quicken Spell feat description?

That is exactly what you do.

By what strange process do you arrive at this conclusion?


Hong "is it in a right-to-left reading of the rules, perhaps?" Ooi

 

[glass]

BTW, since you didn't respond to it, are you conceding the point that summon monster can be quickened by preparing casters (if not sorcerers)?


glass.

 

[glass]

Exactly why do you think that "Special" section exists in the Quicken Spell feat description?

That is what I am trying to get to the bottom of. The problem is that the Special section gives what appears to be a rule, and then justifies it with an erroneous observation.

If the author meant it to be a rule, he should not of qualified it with a reason that does not always hold. If he did not mean it to be a rule but an observation, it should have been couched in terms such as 'generally'.

It is my belief that the author simply did not consider the possibility of using quicken to reduce full round spells to full round actions.

By what strange process do you arrive at this conclusion?

Reading the rules, and then reasoning based on them as I have set out several times.

By what process do you come to rules decisions?


glass.

 

[hong]

That is what I am trying to get to the bottom of. The problem is that the Special section gives what appears to be a rule, and then justifies it with an erroneous observation.

The intended meaning is plainly obvious to any reasonable person. Unreasonable people, of course, are something else.

If the author meant it to be a rule, he should not of qualified it with a reason that does not always hold. If he did not mean it to be a rule but an observation, it should have been couched in terms such as 'generally'.

Very good. Now consider reading up on the other parts of the book where casting spells is mentioned, in particular the section on full-round actions in combat:

"Casting a metamagic spell: Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. ... For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell." -- PHB p.143

It is my belief that the author simply did not consider the possibility of using quicken to reduce full round spells to full round actions.

The word used is "increase", both in the Quicken Spell description and in the section on casting spells as full-round actions. Contrary to popular supposition, "increase" does not mean "decrease".

Reading the rules, and then reasoning based on them as I have set out several times.

What strange "reasoning" you have, grandmother.

By what process do you come to rules decisions?

Well, clearly it's not a process by which "increase" can come to mean "decrease".