Why no Quickened spontanious spells?

[glass]

The intended meaning is plainly obvious to any reasonable person. Unreasonable people, of course, are something else.

Ad hominem attacks already, eh? Your position must be weaker than I thought.

Very good. Now consider reading up on the other parts of the book where casting spells is mentioned, in particular the section on full-round actions in combat:

"Casting a metamagic spell: Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. ... For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell." -- PHB p.143

Actually, it doesn't say what a free action spell that gets spontaneously metamagicked, but I believe the most reasonable course is for it to become a full round action, just like a a standard action spell.

Tell me something: what, would you say, was the casting time for an extradimensional featherfall?

The word used is "increase", both in the Quicken Spell description and in the section on casting spells as full-round actions. Contrary to popular supposition, "increase" does not mean "decrease".

For a preparing caster it is a free action. For a spontaneous caster it is a full round action. There is your increase.



glass.

 

[hong]

Ad hominem attacks already, eh? Your position must be weaker than I thought.

Read up on the meaning of "ad hominem" some time.

Actually, it doesn't say what a free action spell that gets spontaneously metamagicked,

Which puts a fairly impressive hole in your "reduce casting time, then increase" interpretation, but don't let that stop you.

but I believe the most reasonable course is for it to become a full round action, just like a a standard action spell.

Oh, do stop flailing around and just admit that the rules don't support what you're trying to say. You're making it rather drafty in here.

Tell me, what would you say was the casting time for an extradimensional featherfall?

WTF?

For a preparing caster it is a free action. For a spontaneous caster it is a full round action. There is your increase.

Now tell me again what relevance the preparing caster's time has to the spontaneous caster.

 

[Thanee]

Okay, I can understand Sorcerers not being able to use the Quicken Spell Metamagic Feat. It would be pretty darn powerful if Sorcerers could quicken whatever spell they want whenever they want, and that part is understandable.

Not after the XPH, anymore, tho.

Or rather the XPH way of handling this is not understandable...

Anyways...

What I DON'T get, however, and what no amount of excuses will rationalize, is why Sorcerer's can't even use Metamagic Rods of Quickening. Wizards can use them whenever they want, but Sorcerers simply can't. Why not? Would being able to quicken as many spells as a Wizard per day be overpowering?

Yeah, this is completely silly, if you read the metamagic rods the "standard" way, that they are used during casting. The silliest part then is, that sorcerers need a full-round action to use them, while EVERYONE else (including bards) does not!

I'd handle them (and interprete them, which is very well possible within the RAW) in a way, that prepared casters use them during spell preparation, but have to hold them in hand, when releasing the metamagicked spell as well, to power the metamagic, while spontaneous casters have to modify the spells as usual and thus need a full-round action to use them during spellcasting. This way, they are fair for all classes.

The metamagic rods only hold the essence of a metamagic feat, the caster still has to use it (as normal). They provide the caster with the ability to use the feat and with the spell energy to power the metamagic process (the additional spell levels). Wizards need to link their prepared spells with the rods power, while sorcerers modify their spells while they cast them. In both cases, the metamagic power comes from the rod, but the way the metamagic is applied is the standard for every class.

Bye
Thanee

 

[glass]

Actually, it doesn't say what a free action spell that gets spontaneously metamagicked,

Which puts a fairly impressive hole in your "reduce casting time, then increase" interpretation, but don't let that stop you.

Well, it helps in the sense that it further demonstrates that they didn't think through this particular scenario. It certainly doesn't help your case, either.

Oh, do stop flailing around and just admit that the rules don't support what you're trying to say. You're making it rather drafty in here.

If you think I am wrong, argue better. Don't just tell me to stop arguing because you say so. IMHO, that is a quick way to undermine your case.

]Tell me, what would you say was the casting time for an extradimensional featherfall?

WTF?

Another example of a free action casting time being metamagicked. Care to answer the question?

Now tell me again what relevance the preparing caster's time has to the spontaneous caster.

It illustrates how the casting time is increased by the spontaneous metamagic rule.


glass.

 

[apsuman]

I think wighair's point is that this is a non-sequitur. We know that applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell make it a full round action to cast. This is true, but it isn't a reason to disallow sorcerers from using quicken spell.

Given that the reason in the text is false, is there any real reason for this rule to be in existence?


glass.

I saw that this thread heated up so I re-read the post from the start and I am replying as I re-read.

I am confused you say that we know "that applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell make it a full round action to cast."

So, if a sorcerer quickened any spell, it would increase the casting time to a full round action. There is a rule that is pretty clear about the effects that metamagic have on spontaneous spells.

Now, given that the rule is so clear, and that you say "that applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell make it a full round action to cast," I don't understand why there is any disagreement left, and why this thread is still going.

 

[Humanophile]

Hong, out of curiosity, how do you order-of-operations your quickens?

If I were to cast an Extended Mage Armor, it matters not a whit whether it becomes a FRA first, then gets extended, or if it becomes extended first, then becomes a FRA.

But on the Quickened Magic Missle vs. Quickened Monster Summoning, it does. If it becomes a FRA (or longer, in the SM case) first, you can't quicken away your 1 round casting time spells... but your one action spells get bumped up to a FRA (still less than a 1 round casting time), which is then bumped down immediately to a free action by quicken.

If the metamagic time penalty comes after everything else, you can take your Monster Summoning from 1 round to a free action, which goes back up to a FRA when the spell goes off. I know this may sound like repeating the same thing over again to you, but it strikes me as silly that you insist that the casting time "price" be paid both before and after the spell, especially when it's clearly not done that way. Otherwise, all other metamagic would be clearly screwed by having to be time-bumped twice, with a minimum casting time of two rounds.

Personally, I favor the former interpretation; it allows the long-demanded Sorcerous Quicken, and I think the "special" section is simply a relic of nobody raising the order-of-operations issue during 3.0 days. It reads clumsily if taken uncritically, and (IMO) leads to a preferable ruleset if read otherwise.

 

[Gizzard]

...it allows the long-demanded Sorcerous Quicken...

Who is demanding a Sorcerous Quicken??! Are Sorcerers not already powerful enough?

I know this topic came up before and another couple sessions have gone by in my game since then. I am even more sure that letting Sorcerers Quicken is just batty and is correctly prohibited by the rules.

Data Point:

Number of Spells Metamagic'd in the last session by the Sorcerer12: 5 including two Silent Feebleminds and an Empowered, Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement.
Number of Spells Metamagic'd in the last session by the Wizard12: Zero.

 

[Silveras]

Hong, out of curiosity, how do you order-of-operations your quickens?

If I were to cast an Extended Mage Armor, it matters not a whit whether it becomes a FRA first, then gets extended, or if it becomes extended first, then becomes a FRA.

But on the Quickened Magic Missle vs. Quickened Monster Summoning, it does. If it becomes a FRA (or longer, in the SM case) first, you can't quicken away your 1 round casting time spells... but your one action spells get bumped up to a FRA (still less than a 1 round casting time), which is then bumped down immediately to a free action by quicken.

If the metamagic time penalty comes after everything else, you can take your Monster Summoning from 1 round to a free action, which goes back up to a FRA when the spell goes off. I know this may sound like repeating the same thing over again to you, but it strikes me as silly that you insist that the casting time "price" be paid both before and after the spell, especially when it's clearly not done that way. Otherwise, all other metamagic would be clearly screwed by having to be time-bumped twice, with a minimum casting time of two rounds.

Personally, I favor the former interpretation; it allows the long-demanded Sorcerous Quicken, and I think the "special" section is simply a relic of nobody raising the order-of-operations issue during 3.0 days. It reads clumsily if taken uncritically, and (IMO) leads to a preferable ruleset if read otherwise.

The point, I think, is that it takes time to apply metamagic feats on-the-fly (i.e., to spontaneously cast spells), and that defeats the purpose of trying to make them shorter to cast. Therefore, it is not "forbidden" to apply Quicken to spontaneously-cast spells, it is just "impossible" ... because, by the time you modify the spell to apply the metamagic, the effect is already negated.

 

[apsuman]

The point, I think, is that it takes time to apply metamagic feats on-the-fly (i.e., to spontaneously cast spells), and that defeats the purpose of trying to make them shorter to cast. Therefore, it is not "forbidden" to apply Quicken to spontaneously-cast spells, it is just "impossible" ... because, by the time you modify the spell to apply the metamagic, the effect is already negated.

I would say not "impossible"...

I would say that a sorcerer could gain the quicken metamagic feat and use it to cast a quick Magic Missile. However, by the book, it would be a FRA casting time and still take up a 5th level slot -- in other words, nobody would ever do it.

 

[apsuman]

Hong, out of curiosity, how do you order-of-operations your quickens?

If I were to cast an Extended Mage Armor, it matters not a whit whether it becomes a FRA first, then gets extended, or if it becomes extended first, then becomes a FRA.

But on the Quickened Magic Missle vs. Quickened Monster Summoning, it does. If it becomes a FRA (or longer, in the SM case) first, you can't quicken away your 1 round casting time spells... but your one action spells get bumped up to a FRA (still less than a 1 round casting time), which is then bumped down immediately to a free action by quicken.

If the metamagic time penalty comes after everything else, you can take your Monster Summoning from 1 round to a free action, which goes back up to a FRA when the spell goes off. I know this may sound like repeating the same thing over again to you, but it strikes me as silly that you insist that the casting time "price" be paid both before and after the spell, especially when it's clearly not done that way. Otherwise, all other metamagic would be clearly screwed by having to be time-bumped twice, with a minimum casting time of two rounds.

Personally, I favor the former interpretation; it allows the long-demanded Sorcerous Quicken, and I think the "special" section is simply a relic of nobody raising the order-of-operations issue during 3.0 days. It reads clumsily if taken uncritically, and (IMO) leads to a preferable ruleset if read otherwise.

I am not hong (obviously) but I don't understand your question.

If you cast an extended Mage Armor, the spell becomes a FRA casting time
spell. Period. Same as if you empowered it (albeit that makes no sense -- an empowered mage armor).

Also, I though quicken would not work with any spell that takes longer than a FRA. Since Summon Monster does (right? casting time of 1 round) then you can not quicken it, because the quicken feat says so.