Why Planescape?

[Mercule]

The new catalog and the talk about the new Planar Handbook has gotten me thinking.

Personally, I detested Planescape and think that Sigil is silly. There are probably lots of little things that I don't like about it, but the main one is that I think the Prime plane should be at the center of almost any FRPG -- playing Greek titans or gods/demigods or angels might qualify as an exception, but I'd still put most of the action/impact on the Prime.

Anyway, knowing that this is a fairly popular setting, and that many people on these boards who I would consider otherwise reasonable and intelligent really like PS, I thought I'd go ahead and ask:

What is the lure? Why do you like Planescape?

 

[SpuneDagr]

This is kind of silly, but what drew me to it in the first place was the fantastic and ephemeral quality of Tony DiTerlizzi's artwork. He did almost all of the flavor imagery.

I like the idea that all these "monsters" like demons and slaad, etc, are CHARACTERS with motives and dreams like the rest of us (not necessarily NICE dreams, but hey).

 

[Wombat]

Can't think of a single reason...

I always looked upon plane-hopping to be the most munchkiny aspect of D&D. Don't even try to be like anything basic or mythological, go around slaugthering gods (or at least crashing on their home turf), creating bizarre sub-divisions of time and space for no apparent reason.

I always looked upon the Planes as a Heros/Champions games with no buy limit mixed with heavy drugs...

 

[Carnifex]

Can't think of a single reason...

I always looked upon plane-hopping to be the most munchkiny aspect of D&D. Don't even try to be like anything basic or mythological, go around slaugthering gods (or at least crashing on their home turf), creating bizarre sub-divisions of time and space for no apparent reason.

I always looked upon the Planes as a Heros/Champions games with no buy limit mixed with heavy drugs...

And this is why I like Planescape - because it is nothing like what you've detailed above.

Planescape is *not* anywhere near the same as planehopping with a bunch of battle-minded characters from the material plane. It strongly emphasises the fact that doing that kinda thing is not very clever.

You couldn't slaughter gods in Planescape. If you turned up in the domain of one and challenged it, you died, simple as that. This does not mean that gods were undefeatable but you certainly didn't go about it by fighting them (see what the Athar faction chose to do instead), and generally Planescape also didn't have you creating bizarre subdivisions of time and space - there are plenty already there.

Instead the setting gave new spins on all sorts of things. You had a great deal of mystery and exotic feel to the planes - massive places that they are, and infinite in scope. The planar creatures were depicted as more than just hero-fodder to be slain before getting the next sword +5 - they had plans, motivations, and personalities. Some of these things may not have been comprehensible to mortals, but they weren't just standing in line waiting for a paladin in search of bad guys to bash come calling at their door.

It was about belief too - belief could change the planes, change the fate of thousands, and manipulating belief could be a far better way of toppling a power or deity than a sword. Philosophy was strongly emphasised.

Planescape was very much more emphasised on roleplaying rather than dungeon crawling.

 

[Arravis]

Agreed, what made Planescape charming was the fact that it was different.
I've run Forgotten Realms campaign for many, many years... around the time the players get to around 18th+ level, they want some different but want to keep playing the same characters. Planescape is the perfect answer for that.

If you want more of the same, don't use it... if you want something uniquely different, I recommend it.

 

[Hardhead]

I always looked upon plane-hopping to be the most munchkiny aspect of D&D. Don't even try to be like anything basic or mythological, go around slaugthering gods (or at least crashing on their home turf), creating bizarre sub-divisions of time and space for no apparent reason.

If the people you were playing Planescape with were doing this, they weren't playing the setting in the way it was intended (not to say people can't have fun doing that, but the author explicitly says that's not what Planescape is for).

I like Planescape for a lot of reasons:

Sigil: The City of Doors is still the most flavorful of any city ever in any WotC campaign world. It's a Neutral Ground in the afterlife, where the angels and devils can meet and draw up treaties. Where you can see Slaad behving at least semi-civilly, where you can run into any being imaginable, and with portals that lead almost anywhere. Where information, be it the location of a portal or the plans of the Baatezu is the most precious comodity.

Belief: In Planescape, belief shapes reality. Belief is power. The gods play their intricate, never ending games with each other, attempting to get more believers. Wars are fought over belief. Entire cities can be moved by belief.

Epic: Even when you're not in "epic levels," Planescape feels epic. Just look at Dead Gods, or the relatively low level Fires of Dis.

Story: Planescape wasn't a static setting that never changed - but it didn't have un uneding line of novels either. Instead, plots and stories were imbeded in the supplements. They were (almost) never big, but you would often find a reference to Fires of Dis in Planes of Chaos or the resolution of a plot hook in another book, or a mention of an NPC that stands alone (but the NPC was mentioned in another book too, and now you know what happened to him as a result of the hook surrounding him that time). It was very well done. You wouldn't even know you were missing another book in which somethig was mentioned. But if you had both... it just gave the setting a living, breathing, feel.

No Uber-NPCs: There was no Elminster or uber-NPCs to make the PCs feel worthless. Sure, there was the Lady of Pain, but she just kept the peace in Sigil. Actually, there were TONS of uber-NPCs, but only if you define them stat-wise. There was so much stuff that the PCs could accomplish (especially with belief, not raw personal power, being so important), that the world could be significantly impacted by PCs.

Yeah, it could be impacted by PCs: That's another point in and of itself. Look at the adventures we have now. Even high level ones, like Lord of the Iron Fortess, dont' change D&D. In Planecape, you could. In Fires of Dis, Menasus slid from Arcadia to Mechanus (a change still reflected in the 3e MotP). In Faces of Evil, the PCs could possibly have robbed the Baatezu and Tanar'ri of their Teleport Without Error powers. In Dead Gods, well, that's a huge spoiler, but the impact was felt as far as the Book of Vile Darkness. And DMs were encouraged to do the same with their home-brew adventures, and the flavor of the setting was designed to accomodate doing that kind of huge epic, world-shaking stuff.

NPCs: It had some of the most memorable NPCs ever. Shemeshka the Marauder, A'kin the Friendly Fiend, Tripicus, Rowan Darkwood, Hashkar. Faces of Sigil is still one of the most unique, and best, supplements ever written, IMO.

 

[Grog]

The best thing about Planescape was the PC game Planescape: Torment. IMO, anyway.

 

[Anthraxus]

Mainly, I just like the freedom that the setting offers. Travel to all sorts of planes, interact with the denizens- not tromping around and killing everything. Although you could play it that way if you wanted to.

I like the fact that a lot of monsters/demons/devas/whatever have goals and motivations other than "Kill the PCs".

The Planar Cant doesn't bother me as much as it does some people. Although in my campaign, I don't really use it.

-A

 

[Trickstergod]

I'll agree; some of the aspects of Planescape were just silly or irritating. I like Planescape, but think that the idea of Sigil being the closest thing to the center of the universe over the Prime Material Plane was a bit...meh. And yes, I realize the books state otherwise at times, but the fact is, mechanically, Sigil was the closest thing to the center of reality as anything could be, between the ways Weapon plusses, magic, and all that other stuff worked on the Planes. So that's a strike against Planescape.

Then I never much liked the idea of people regularly traipsing around with the dead, leastaways, those who ascended to one of the more heavenly after lives. Where was it that band of elves settled? Bytopia? It was so nice, they decided they'd just stay there? Egh. Bleah. The idea of petitioners never much sat well with me, either. They toiled all their lives and now...more of that? I figured, at least in the Good aligned Planes, the dead should be sancrosanct, and angels and their ilk weren't going to let squatters set up shop in their home. You want to go to the Seven Heavens, you earn it after a lifetime of good deeds, even if you are good now. So that never sat well with me.

The constant repeated theme of the gods being nothing more than Powers, and not really creator figures, also never sat well with me. While I don't necessarily believe that this idea should have been nonexistent, the way Planescape was written, it came fairly close to saying that 1) Gods did not create the universe, and 2) There are figures greater than gods out there. Which to me, means they're not much of any kind of god at all. Then again, that idea's not necessarily unique to Planescape.

But, for those little quirks and irks, Planescape still had a number of other things going for it. "Philosopher's with clubs," about sums it up, and my opinion as well. It integrated thought, role-playing, belief, faith and so much more along with fantasy, magic and beating the beejesus out of monsters. While this isn't necessarily absent from other settings, it is the main theme of Planescape.

As much as any D&D setting draws upon the writings of Aristotle and Neil Gaiman, Planescape does so the most so. It is quite possibly the most unique setting out there without going too far beyond the bounds of fantasy (Whereas Spelljammer and Iron Kingdoms both traipse into the area of Sci-Fi).

It's a game where monsters often aren't just monsters, but characters and NPC's worthy of interaction and much more than combat. Where sometimes, combat is simply just not an option.

And let's not forget the computer game Torment, which is what kicked off my interest in Planescape to begin with. I'm honestly not sure there's a better way to introduce someone to the setting than that game. It's the bees knees.

 

[Zappo]

I'll give it a try. The easy answer is that "the Prime plane should be at the center of almost any FRPG" is just opinion and a matter of taste. But that's fairly obvious and doesn't answer anything.

Planescape can't be enjoyed within the usual FRPG retrieve-artefact-travel-to-evil-empire-kill-evil-lord perspective. That is made explicitly clear in the very first pages of the boxed set. In fact, I have often felt that many objections to Planescape come from adopting the wrong perspective.

I like Planescape for lots and lots of reasons, from the general weirdness of the locations to the wonderful roleplaying opportunities offered by the factions. I even enjoy the slang - though I agree that it's way overdone in the 2E books, and I have noticed that English-speakers tend to find it silly.

Nevertheless, I think that there's a kernel of why I like the setting. Planescape done well is a complete shift of focus from standard fantasy settings. The characters are walking on heaven and hell, on dreams and beliefs made solid. A character's power and items are irrelevant before the infinity of the outer planes, but this doesn't mean that the PCs are powerless, it means that they have to find other tools, such as knowledge and belief.

Consider literature such as the Divine Comedy, or Moorcock's Elric series, or some Gaiman comics... characters on other planes face physical challenges, but they also face more important challenges to their wits, morals, ethics and convinction. You can have these in any setting of course, but only Planescape is built around them.

I love Planescape because of the incredible roleplaying opportunities it presents at every step.

That, and diTerlizzi's tiefling. :drool: