Why Prestige Classes?

[PJ-Mason]

Ah, now I have had this as well from one of my players as well. At one point when he was working out his entire progression I was against the idea. After all, how can you dictate the direction that a campaign may go? During the course of the story, the direction may go in such a way as to make make their PrC option obsolete or at the very best highly unlikely. I find the idea of building your character as you go, reacting to events that happen to your character, the way to go.
But then, it was pointed out to me that most PrC's have game requirements that are almost impossible to meet if you play that way, and thats right. Having players dictate when they will meet their trainer NPC is bad though. As DM you should find the right time to bring such a character in, even if it means the player has to wait a level past what he wanted to do so. Fit it in where the game allows.

I still think that PrC's should be representing something special about the setting you play in, rather than being specilisations of existing classes, and that not every book should hold a half dozen of them.

Thats my point. Prestige classes have turned out to be a crappy tool, for a variety of reasons (mistreatment, shabby construction, etc). Time to dump them/it.

I'd rather my player got there through roleplaying and just not worry about an idiotic set of rules or requirements that often don't make any sense in the first place, or at least are abstract in the extreme AND cause a lot of needless DM worrying. Sticking with the Assassin...Assassination is something a character might do, not what a character IS.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

No, it's not appropriate. You can't use roleplaying to balance mechanics - that's bad design.

More to the point, nothing should be written mechanically that needs your players to be anything other than average D&D players to make it balanced. Complain about broken prestige classes when they're genuinely broken - but complaining about the concept per se, or the profusion of third-party rubbish being churned out, is just silly.

 

[reanjr]

No, it's not appropriate. You can't use roleplaying to balance mechanics - that's bad design.

More to the point, nothing should be written mechanically that needs your players to be anything other than average D&D players to make it balanced. Complain about broken prestige classes when they're genuinely broken - but complaining about the concept per se, or the profusion of third-party rubbish being churned out, is just silly.

I'm not talking about balance at all. I (and most others here) never had a problem with the balance of prestige classes. The problem was on having a mechanic and relying on players to use the mechanic only in appropriate situations. I don't have a problem with this. But if you have ever had a cleric (that didn't have Healing as a domain or tenet of their faith) that casts cure light wounds on people of different faiths in the party, then they are not playing their character appropriately. They're not healing them for prosylitization. They're healing them to get through the adventure. It's entirely mechanical. And that's what prestige classes are. They are a group of mechanics to hand pick wacky abilities from.

Any rule that requires role-playing to implement properly has absolutely no place in the player's hands. It should be explicitly DM material that may be optionally used (at DM's discretion) by players.

 

[PJ-Mason]

If you have players who don't care about the flavour of your campaign, the mechanical balance of their characters, the logic of their character's history as a person living and adventuring in the world, and who abuse prestige classes to fit their personal power-concept of an "awesome char!!!!one" . . .

. . . the problem you have is nothing whatsoever to do with prestige classes.

Its a seperate problem, i'll grant you that. But its a problem that was helped along by prestige classes, i have zero doubt in that.

As I have said here and elsewhere ad nauseam, prestige classes are nothing more than a tool. They are a game-rules construct that can be employed in a number of different ways..

Or ignored if they prove to be an obstacle to good gaming.

I DO have a legitimate gripe with pretige classes. What origianlly seemed like a wonderful game-flavor mechanic-idea has turned out to more trouble than its worth for many of us. Not just me and certaintly not just because of my gaming group. Let me also add that this group used to be one the best roleplaying groups that any DM ever put together and that i would have put against anyone.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who allow the idiocy of others to prejudice their opinions towards something barely related to said idiocy. Bad players are bad players, bad design is bad design, but that's it.

And pretige classes is bad design. A great idea that never was.
Well, i'll lose a lot of sleep tonight over the loss of your respect, believe you me!
After all these years of gaming, i do know how to recognize the difference between bad players and bad game mechanics, but thanks for the heads up...uh.....Mhac.

Btw, where does your name come from? Thats a heck of a handle.

 

[reanjr]

Mhac.

Btw, where does your name come from? Thats a heck of a handle.

I think's it's Gaelic for Deadlights (hence the picture from It for his avatar). He'll have to confirm.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

When 3E first came out I could not get enough of PRCs. Now I dislike them. In my game I'm trying to discourage the use of PRCs. I'm also not having as many villains with a PRC. They just seem cheesy to me. Why do I need a mounted combat PRC when a character can excell at mounted combat by just being a fighter? It just seems pointless to me. I do allow a few PRCs and one of my 4 players is training to go into a PRC, dwarven defender, next level.

 

[Psion]

What happened to characters with 20 levels of core classes? Why is it that the majority of players always seem to go for them?

By their very name, Prestige, they should be rare, shouldn't they?

Are they not?

In the last game I ran to 20+ levels, there was only one character with a prestige class.

In my current game, there are multiple characters with "prestige classes", though the product never calls them prestige classes, though AFAIAC they are (though modern afficianadoes would call them advanced classes.) To me, prestige classes are merely classes with entry prerequisites. So long as it fulfills your purpose to have classes of that sort in your game, then the name or the supposition that they must be rare is really sort of irrelevant.

 

[Psion]

Thats my point. Prestige classes have turned out to be a crappy tool, for a variety of reasons (mistreatment, shabby construction, etc). Time to dump them/it.

On the contrary, I have found it to be a very useful tool. They help to shape the world and realize npc concepts without jumbling together classes with a less than perfect set of abilities.

I'd rather my player got there through roleplaying and just not worry about an idiotic set of rules or requirements that often don't make any sense in the first place,

If the requirements don't make sense, that is the fault of the author not the technique.

or at least are abstract in the extreme AND cause a lot of needless DM worrying.

Who is worried? I'm not worried? Are you worried?

Sticking with the Assassin...Assassination is something a character might do, not what a character IS.

A wizard can pick up a dagger and "fight"; does that mean that we don't need a "fighter"?

I think not. Just because anyone with the will and means can engage in an act of assassination does not mean it is impossible or unlikely to have a group of characters who make it their specialty and hone their art to perfection.

 

[PJ-Mason]

A wizard can pick up a dagger and "fight"; does that mean that we don't need a "fighter"?

Well i am a big Ogl/classless D&D fan, soo....

I think not. Just because anyone with the will and means can engage in an act of assassination does not mean it is impossible or unlikely to have a group of characters who make it their specialty and hone their art to perfection.

Except that i don't see a group of assasssins as being so alike. They would likely have very different talents and assassination skills. Its not a great idea for a prestige class. Would they all be spellcasters and resistant to poison? If they all used the same methods of assassinations they'd be competeing with each other and probably just wipe each other out so as to make sure they get those precious few contracts out there. I see an assasination group or guild as group of people with unique talents to offer their clients. I just think that the assassin is the perfect example of a prestige class that both does not add specific setting flavor(retards it even!) and isn't that well put together (or at least just isn't necessary). Again a feat would do just as well to give them Death Attack (the only reason for the assassin class to exist beyond the rogue class) and skip the prestige class hassle. So many of prestige classes are like this. Especially the DMG ones that are what.... generically specific..or is that specifically generic?

 

[PJ-Mason]

When 3E first came out I could not get enough of PRCs. Now I dislike them. In my game I'm trying to discourage the use of PRCs. I'm also not having as many villains with a PRC. They just seem cheesy to me. Why do I need a mounted combat PRC when a character can excell at mounted combat by just being a fighter? It just seems pointless to me. I do allow a few PRCs and one of my 4 players is training to go into a PRC, dwarven defender, next level.

Exactly. Feats work perfectly well to specialize characters beyond their basic class. Prestige Classes are redundant game feature. It also sets a bad precedent if you ask me. You CAN'T be a Dwarven Defender without the prestige class? Huh? Does that mean my fighter can't retire and buy a tavern if he doesn't have levels in the Innkeeper prestige class?

I don't know. I just think that feats, templates, and even styles (like the martial styles in OA) is perfectly able to get the job done. Beyond being a commercial success for so many companies, prestige classes are not needed at best and get in the way at worst. YMMV.