Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Storyteller01]

I do agree it should be sometimes lonely to be a paladin, but I also believe he shouldn't have to be all cop; I like him better as a little bit cop, and a little bit Dirty Harry.

Agreed. But he still shouldn't be able to justify every action with 'well, I can bend my code a little bit'. Even DH gave folks a chance to surrender ('do you feel lucky, punk?), and Mal did try to give the money back first.

 

[el-remmen]

Tell us why playing a paladin shouldn't be easy.

Because the paladin class is one with a moral element built right into its core idea, and why play such a character if you don't want to use that moral aspect and have it challenged?

For me it is the equivalent of playing a fighter but never wanting to be challenged to a fight, or playing a cleric and never getting to try to turn undead, or playing a druid and never having to deal with aspects of nature (such as defending it, or acting as its selective force ).

And so, since that moral element is at the core of the class, and the core elements of classes are there to create challenge, and moral challenges can be especially difficult (as many people have already said in this thread), being a paladin, is and should be "hard".

Now, when I say "hard", I don't mean mind-numbingly bogged down in the minutae of bureacracy, or spending 3 hours arguing some moral choice (though I will admit my group would love to RP that out for an hour ot two and call it a great session) - but some quick hard choices that have to be made in the moment, or some situation where it is not easy to immediately determine who is in the right - Perhaps some choice regarding what aspect of their god or pantheon to favor tied in the fabric of the over-arching campaign plot, etc. . .

 

[Numion]

For me it is the equivalent of playing a fighter but never wanting to be challenged to a fight, or playing a cleric and never getting to try to turn undead, or playing a druid and never having to deal with aspects of nature (such as defending it, or acting as its selective force ).

The Palandinly equivalent of those is laying some divine SMITE on heathen arses, so to speak. Not those wussy "Paladins dilemmas" that pop up as threads. The difficulties in playing Paladin should come from being the gods (mailed) fist on earth. Not from "Did I do good CSI on the orcs asses before bitch slapping them?". Because the DM can jerk Paladins around with the code doesn't make it so he should.

 

[Storyteller01]

The Palandinly equivalent of those is laying some divine SMITE on heathen arses, so to speak. Not those wussy "Paladins dilemmas" that pop up as threads. The difficulties in playing Paladin should come from being the gods (mailed) fist on earth. Not from "Did I do good CSI on the orcs asses before bitch slapping them?". Because the DM can jerk Paladins around with the code doesn't make it so he should.

Okay, I'll use a third party adventure (published and printed) for an example. In said adventure, the players are sneaking through the sleeping quarters of a goblin community (60 or more, including woman and children). They have to do so without waking anyone up, but they're so zoned out that you only need to roll a 6 to do so.

Suddenly a baby goblin notices the characters and starts whining. What would a paladin do?

How the adventure handles it is listed below:

Spoiler

Per the adventure, killing the baby is an evil act, and it's recommended you tell them so before they commit to it. Rolling a Sense Motive 18 will reveal that the baby is teething and wants something to chew on. Hard leather or similar substance would suffice.

 

[Rel]

Okay, I'll use a third party adventure (published and printed) for an example. In said adventure, the players are sneaking through the sleeping quarters of a goblin community (60 or more, including woman and children). They have to do so without waking anyone up, but they're so zoned out that you only need to roll a 6 to do so.

Suddenly a baby goblin notices the characters and starts whining. What would a paladin do?

Does the baby goblin detect as Evil?

 

[el-remmen]

The Palandinly equivalent of those is laying some divine SMITE on heathen arses, so to speak. Not those wussy "Paladins dilemmas" that pop up as threads. The difficulties in playing Paladin should come from being the gods (mailed) fist on earth. Not from "Did I do good CSI on the orcs asses before bitch slapping them?". Because the DM can jerk Paladins around with the code doesn't make it so he should.

Except you don't need a moral code as a basic aspect of the class to lay down the divine smite - those are both aspects of the class that compliment each other, but are not mutually exclusive.

You can use hyperbole like "Did I do good CSI on the orcs asses before bitch slapping them?" but using an extreme example of how a DM might restrict and strangle the fun out of a class does not make your point or disprove mine.

I guess some people might call the kind of games I run "jerking the characters around" - but my players call it a fun challenging game with just the right amount of drama to invest the players into their characters and setting.

Again, just like you should expect wilderness action if you play a ranger, you should expect "moral action" of some degree with a paladin.

 

[Storyteller01]

Does the baby goblin detect as Evil?

Nope, but some have made the case that this wouldn't matter.

 

[el-remmen]

Does the baby goblin detect as Evil?

Wouldn't it be funny if all babies detected as evil, since all they care about is their own needs?

 

[delericho]

I think, by Christianity, you meant to say "Norse and Celtic paganism."

No, I actually did mean Christianity.

Although I'm aware the original is significantly different (and, if there's any historical basis to it, it will be different still), the version of the Arthurian tale that is most familiar to most people has been very heavily Christianised. Lancelot is clearly a Christian paladin who later falls due to his adultery with the queen. Galahad is likewise a Christian paladin. The quest for the Holy Grail is quite clearly Christian in character.

As for the Peers of Charlemagne, I must admit I don't know as much about them as perhaps I should. However, a new development or not, they remain Christian in origin.

Finally, Paks.. As mentioned, she is a recent development, and isn't therefore part of the original inspiration for the D&D Paladin (she might have come to influence later versions of the Paladin, of course). As such, whether she is non-Christian or not is something of a moot point. That said, she does provide clear guidance for how a Paladin might well function in a polytheistic milieu.

 

[Numion]

Okay, I'll use a third party adventure (published and printed) for an example. In said adventure, the players are sneaking through the sleeping quarters of a goblin community (60 or more, including woman and children). They have to do so without waking anyone up, but they're so zoned out that you only need to roll a 6 to do so.

Suddenly a baby goblin notices the characters and starts whining. What would a paladin do?

Why would a Paladin shy away from fighting evil goblins? He'd mow em all down .. just kidding. Isn't the Paladin breaking and entering, though? A big no-no .. kidding again

Sooo .. my real answer is:

Smack the baby with a subdual strike. Flat of the blade or fist, boot, etc.

How the adventure handles it is listed below:

Spoiler

Per the adventure, killing the bay is an evil act. Rolling a Sense Motive 18 will reveal that the baby is teething and wants something to chew on. Hard leather or similar substance would suffice.

That'll work too.