why the attraction to "low magic"?
- Thread starter GlassJaw
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barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
One of the primary reasons for the focus on items in D&D is because it's SIMPLE. One part of the fun of playing this game is watching your character get more powerful, and acquire new abilities (or improvements to old abilities) -- these give you more options in play as the game goes on.
Rules on making items customized for individual characters will be more complicated than a simple list of progressively more powerful items. It's easier to just hand out +1, +2, +3 weapons than it is to come up with a weapon personalized to a character and figure out how THIS one is going to increase in power.
I'm not saying it's impossible (heck, that's exactly what I do), but it's more work. And for lots of people, it's a bunch of work that is tangential to what's fun about the game.
Items are simple way to "power-up". They're a finite bunch of slots that a player can plug new abilities into. They're a measurable, discrete way for DMs to hand out new goodies.
Items are good for lots of games. You can pretty easily come up with logical holes in a setting that includes lots of them, but okay, if you can't tear logical holes in ANY fantasy setting, you aren't really trying. For lots of people, the magic item holes aren't very important.
Not all games need the "power-up" mechanic, and even those that do can find other ways of going about it.
I went low-magic for Barsoom in a couple of ways. There are almost no magic items on Barsoom. Those that do exist are artifact-level power, and generally in the possession of really powerful individuals. Likewise, there are almost no spellcasters -- one of the key conceits of Barsoom is that the best course of action for any spellcaster is total paranoia. Kill every other living thing that knows anything about magic, and you become unstoppable. So such spellcasters as exist are extraordinarily powerful (on a par with deities in other campaigns), and usually completely insane to boot.
The result is a campaign that's sort of a cross between Edgar Rice Burroughs, with swashbuckling action that depends more on derring-do than magic assistance, and HP Lovecraft, with massively powerful forces that care nothing for "mere mortals".
With the PCs squarely in the middle of it all. They hate me.
Rules on making items customized for individual characters will be more complicated than a simple list of progressively more powerful items. It's easier to just hand out +1, +2, +3 weapons than it is to come up with a weapon personalized to a character and figure out how THIS one is going to increase in power.
I'm not saying it's impossible (heck, that's exactly what I do), but it's more work. And for lots of people, it's a bunch of work that is tangential to what's fun about the game.
Items are simple way to "power-up". They're a finite bunch of slots that a player can plug new abilities into. They're a measurable, discrete way for DMs to hand out new goodies.
Items are good for lots of games. You can pretty easily come up with logical holes in a setting that includes lots of them, but okay, if you can't tear logical holes in ANY fantasy setting, you aren't really trying. For lots of people, the magic item holes aren't very important.
Not all games need the "power-up" mechanic, and even those that do can find other ways of going about it.
I went low-magic for Barsoom in a couple of ways. There are almost no magic items on Barsoom. Those that do exist are artifact-level power, and generally in the possession of really powerful individuals. Likewise, there are almost no spellcasters -- one of the key conceits of Barsoom is that the best course of action for any spellcaster is total paranoia. Kill every other living thing that knows anything about magic, and you become unstoppable. So such spellcasters as exist are extraordinarily powerful (on a par with deities in other campaigns), and usually completely insane to boot.
The result is a campaign that's sort of a cross between Edgar Rice Burroughs, with swashbuckling action that depends more on derring-do than magic assistance, and HP Lovecraft, with massively powerful forces that care nothing for "mere mortals".
With the PCs squarely in the middle of it all. They hate me.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
barsoomcore said:
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
Dogbrain, I'll assume you just thought that was amusing. Obviously the analogy is quite flawed. A modern gun is expensive, but not expensive; it's a few hundred bucks, a week's wages for the common man -- the equivalent of less than one gold piece in D&D. And, of course, a modern gun store in the US is well protected by the modern state.Dogbrain said:
Imagine Don's Guns in Africa or the Middle East, full of not just handguns and hunting rifles, but fully automatic assault rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, surface-to-air missiles, heavy artillery, armored fighting vehicles, and main battle tanks -- and you still don't have something as ludicrous as D&D's magic shops. Anyone with the military might of a state will either be the state or have that power appropriated by the state.
Desdichado
Hero
Thanks!Mystery Man said:
Numion
First Post
High-level magic in D&D has great destructive powers. It also has great protective powers. Whats the use, then?
I find it really intresting to use the right mix of protective and offensive magics with my cleric. It requires tactical thinking and anticipating the problems (don't tell me preparing to cast blindness on the beholder when it closes the AM eye isn't great tactics). I like that. I understand that some people wouldn't like it.
Some think that magic is totally unbalanced at higher levels. I think it's not. Only time the my game was thrown out of whack was because of 3.0E Sun Elf Archmage. Too powerful. But that was the PrC, not the rules.
In literary sources many magics are quite destructive against unprotected targets (heck, even the emperors lightning in Star Wars). So it is in D&D. You just have to find the right counters for the right situation. Spells like anti-life shell are really good, but can also be devastating in the wrong situation. Death Ward is your friend.
I find it really intresting to use the right mix of protective and offensive magics with my cleric. It requires tactical thinking and anticipating the problems (don't tell me preparing to cast blindness on the beholder when it closes the AM eye isn't great tactics). I like that. I understand that some people wouldn't like it.
Some think that magic is totally unbalanced at higher levels. I think it's not. Only time the my game was thrown out of whack was because of 3.0E Sun Elf Archmage. Too powerful. But that was the PrC, not the rules.
In literary sources many magics are quite destructive against unprotected targets (heck, even the emperors lightning in Star Wars). So it is in D&D. You just have to find the right counters for the right situation. Spells like anti-life shell are really good, but can also be devastating in the wrong situation. Death Ward is your friend.
Chimera
First Post
In a High Magic world, everyone expects to be able to roll into the neighborhood Magic shop and pick up just about anything. As if the proprietor has millions of GPs to spend on inventory *just in case* someone want a Mithril Widget +4.
We also assume that he has mountains of cash sitting around to purchase any old +2 Sword or Wand of Fireball that we care to sell. (And strangely, they all seem to take our word for what these items do, rather than insisting on doing their own Identify spells to ensure they get what they paid for!)
We also tend to assume too much that he isn't being constantly robbed blind by the local thieves, who surely can't pass up such valuables or such piles of gold.
You also have to keep in mind that each magic item required a lot of time and money for someone to make, and they were made for a purpose, for a specific buyer. Seems extremely unlikely that Wally the Wizard spends all his time and hard earned money cranking out those Magic Widgets on spec(ulation).
Your average 18th level Wizard isn't going to waste his valuable time and hard earned gold manufacturing a +6 item just to have it sit on the store shelf just in case some guy comes along wanting one of those things. He has better things to do with his time and money. When and If someone comes along that wants such an item...then he can negotiate. Assuming that he has the time and inclination to do such things.
Potions, Scrolls and other expendable items, perhaps. At least the most highly desirable such. Hardly worthwhile to have a lot of Scrolls of Jump sitting idle in your shop. Better to make such things on demand than waste time, money and experience just to have them sit in stock for a couple of years.
IMCW, there aren't that many higher level characters in the first place. And those who are higher level, have better things to do with their time. There also isn't this huge long history of people making magic items. So of course, there aren't these massive numbers of magic items.
There also aren't too many Wizards rich enough and prepared enough to buy and sell magic items the way many players want to see. It takes a lot of work, a lot of money, and a lot of security.
So...you find a better sword and want to sell your old magic sword. You don't just amble down to Don's Magic Shop and trade it in for 1,000gp.
First, you have to find a buyer.
Then he has to be sure of what he's buying.
Then you have to work out payment. You might have to take it in trade.
We also assume that he has mountains of cash sitting around to purchase any old +2 Sword or Wand of Fireball that we care to sell. (And strangely, they all seem to take our word for what these items do, rather than insisting on doing their own Identify spells to ensure they get what they paid for!)
We also tend to assume too much that he isn't being constantly robbed blind by the local thieves, who surely can't pass up such valuables or such piles of gold.
You also have to keep in mind that each magic item required a lot of time and money for someone to make, and they were made for a purpose, for a specific buyer. Seems extremely unlikely that Wally the Wizard spends all his time and hard earned money cranking out those Magic Widgets on spec(ulation).
Your average 18th level Wizard isn't going to waste his valuable time and hard earned gold manufacturing a +6 item just to have it sit on the store shelf just in case some guy comes along wanting one of those things. He has better things to do with his time and money. When and If someone comes along that wants such an item...then he can negotiate. Assuming that he has the time and inclination to do such things.
Potions, Scrolls and other expendable items, perhaps. At least the most highly desirable such. Hardly worthwhile to have a lot of Scrolls of Jump sitting idle in your shop. Better to make such things on demand than waste time, money and experience just to have them sit in stock for a couple of years.
IMCW, there aren't that many higher level characters in the first place. And those who are higher level, have better things to do with their time. There also isn't this huge long history of people making magic items. So of course, there aren't these massive numbers of magic items.
There also aren't too many Wizards rich enough and prepared enough to buy and sell magic items the way many players want to see. It takes a lot of work, a lot of money, and a lot of security.
So...you find a better sword and want to sell your old magic sword. You don't just amble down to Don's Magic Shop and trade it in for 1,000gp.
First, you have to find a buyer.
Then he has to be sure of what he's buying.
Then you have to work out payment. You might have to take it in trade.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Well that's an interesting contention. I assume you've seen the opening bazaar scenes in Blackhawk down where the delta force soldier is walking through a bazaar that is chock full of assault rifles and rocket propelled grenades and probably has a few surface to air missiles in there as well. My understanding is that, throughout much of the middle east, Asia, and Africa, that kind of a market, while not exactly common isn't unheard of.
Historically, full-grade military hardware was not a state monopoly either until the late 19th century at the latest. The British and Dutch East India companies maintained their own armies and navies though they were practically states in themselves in some regards. In general, however, merchant ships were able to buy top grade military weaponry for defense against pirates. The distinction between a merchantman and a man of war was not always clear cut and where it was, it generally had more to do with the amount of space dedicated to cargo vs. the amount dedicated to weaponry and the training of the crew than the quality of their weapons. I seem to recall reading of at least one private army in the American West as well.
That is not to say that the "Magic Shoppe" is a viable economic model (personally, I think it reflects DM and a lack of player interest in the economics of adventuring more than anything else). However, it is to say that this particular argument against it is flawed:
And as to the "Achilles didn't have a magical grab bag..." argument, well, according to the Illiad, Ajax or Diomedes (I forget who) killed himself when Odysseus got Achilles' armor instead of him. So there was obviously something special about, at the very least, Achilles' armor and shield. However, if you read the Norse sagas, it seems that most characters have at least one item that is special or magical and Beowulf goes into a lot of detail about all of the arms and armor of the hero at the various points of the story. There are entire Arthurian tales about questing for various bits of loot (Cuwllych and Olwen comes to mind).
For that matter, if Tolkein went into any more detail about the various gear his characters got, the poetic sections would be nothing but laundry lists of "eyes were sharp/spear was keen/shining helm afar was seen." To take just one example, by the end of the book, Pippin had the following:
Helm of the tower of the guard, mail of the tower of the guard, blade of westernesse, cloak of Lorien, belt from Lorien, lasting effects of the waters of the ents, a horn given to him by the king, and I think he had a shield from somewhere. For fiction, where minor items don't merit mentioning because that would take too long and make the story read more like a character sheet or a treatise on the various components of ancient armors, that's quite a bit. On the other hand, it's not exactly unusual for a LotR character either.
The idea that the literary and legendary roots of D&D aren't full of items doesn't bear up to scrutiny.
Historically, full-grade military hardware was not a state monopoly either until the late 19th century at the latest. The British and Dutch East India companies maintained their own armies and navies though they were practically states in themselves in some regards. In general, however, merchant ships were able to buy top grade military weaponry for defense against pirates. The distinction between a merchantman and a man of war was not always clear cut and where it was, it generally had more to do with the amount of space dedicated to cargo vs. the amount dedicated to weaponry and the training of the crew than the quality of their weapons. I seem to recall reading of at least one private army in the American West as well.
That is not to say that the "Magic Shoppe" is a viable economic model (personally, I think it reflects DM and a lack of player interest in the economics of adventuring more than anything else). However, it is to say that this particular argument against it is flawed:
mmadsen said:
And as to the "Achilles didn't have a magical grab bag..." argument, well, according to the Illiad, Ajax or Diomedes (I forget who) killed himself when Odysseus got Achilles' armor instead of him. So there was obviously something special about, at the very least, Achilles' armor and shield. However, if you read the Norse sagas, it seems that most characters have at least one item that is special or magical and Beowulf goes into a lot of detail about all of the arms and armor of the hero at the various points of the story. There are entire Arthurian tales about questing for various bits of loot (Cuwllych and Olwen comes to mind).
For that matter, if Tolkein went into any more detail about the various gear his characters got, the poetic sections would be nothing but laundry lists of "eyes were sharp/spear was keen/shining helm afar was seen." To take just one example, by the end of the book, Pippin had the following:
Helm of the tower of the guard, mail of the tower of the guard, blade of westernesse, cloak of Lorien, belt from Lorien, lasting effects of the waters of the ents, a horn given to him by the king, and I think he had a shield from somewhere. For fiction, where minor items don't merit mentioning because that would take too long and make the story read more like a character sheet or a treatise on the various components of ancient armors, that's quite a bit. On the other hand, it's not exactly unusual for a LotR character either.
The idea that the literary and legendary roots of D&D aren't full of items doesn't bear up to scrutiny.
Geoff Watson
First Post
Aust Diamondew said:
No, just magic armour, magic shield, magic sword, and magic spear.
The other items weren't important enough to have legends about them.
Geoff.
Geoff Watson
First Post
Chimera said:
No, they expect to be able to commision just about anything.
Geoff.
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