why the attraction to "low magic"?

[Stockdale]

I've been entertained by this discussion of high magic v low magic campaigns. This is really just a personal preference and mindset issue.

I recently played in a Greyhawk campaign that was high magic. In that game, access to magic items was not an issue. There was a flousihing trade in magical items in larger cities, but cost (it seems my character was always short on cash) was prohibitive. Despite its high magic feel, the wonder of magical items, new spells, etc. was kept alive through good story telling and character interaction. ScyldSceafing, the DM, in the Concerning Celene story kept the wonder alive with "you have never seen [insert character name] do this before. [interest description of action/spell/whatever]." The fact there was access to high magic didn't reduce roleplay or alter the game whatsoever.

I current play in JoshDyal's Dark Heritage game which, as you all know, is low magic. Limited access to magic spells and items (as though you'd really want to use them considering saniety loss) and no access to magical healing. The players' approach to tactical situation has to change between the high and low magic, and the DM must reconsider the appropriate encounter level considering the low magic setting. The play is still enjoyable.

While a low magic campaign changes player strategy, it doesn't, IMO, limited character options. The options remain the same - class, feat and skill selection. Like the Rogue/Wizard I played in Concerning Celene and the Wildlander/Fighter I play in Dark Heritage, character options all boil down to what you choose and what you do with those choices.

 

[Desdichado]

No it's not.

Yes it is.

Yes it does! I am stupid and bad!

err... hold on a second...

Alright, you crazy Canadians; keep it down up there!

P.S. Hey, you know we love you!

 

[Chimera]

It's not D&D's fault that your players are stubborn.

Ahem. :\

The fact that there are "market prices" listed for magic items in the DMG does not mean that there are markets where magic items are sold. For one thing, I've never seen a DM who doesn't compare the item requested by a player with the demographics of spellcasters in the town - are there NPCs in town who could make it, never mind the question of whether or not they would? You might make an exception for a potion or scroll, which an item crafter might have traded for in the past and kept around to sell later, but not a +2 holy flaming longbow.

I think it's very much the DM's responsibility to establish the availability of magic items, and to communicate this to her players.

No kidding? What part of this didn't I say earlier?

 

[GlassJaw]

This thread has surpassed even my wildest dreams! Thanks to all so far. I definitely have a new understanding (and a lot of cool ideas!) about different campaign styles.

I know more than a few people here run low-magic (or whatever you want to call it) campaigns. What I'd like to see is what you actually give to the players when you are starting the campaign. I'm talking about low-magic campaign CRUNCH here.

I know you posted some info on your campaign Al'Kelhar (very nice) but it didn't contain much crunch. A lot of talk has been about maintaining "balance" when you start adjusting the magic level in the game. I want to see how that translates into actual rules. Some say it's not rocket science? Great. SHOW ME THE LOW-MAGIC!!

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

A few suggestions have been made. Here are the sites I mentioned in my first post.

Giant in the Playground - go to the Forms section on the sidebar then scroll down to the world-building articles. It's a general overview on how to build a world, but it shows how 3.5's magic and equipment did not fit his worldview.

I'd also recommend reading Josh Dyal's campaign website. It offers a lot of material you could use in a rare magic setting.

I'm not entirely sure what kind of "crunch" you're looking for that hasn't already been offered. Some posters mentioned handing out powers rather than magic items, equal in value to their magical counterparts. Others suggested increasing CR for monsters with powerful spell-like abilities, damage reduction, and so on. You could also lower a party's ECL when calculating XP, which would amount to the same thing, really. Maybe you could emphasis the rarity of spellcasters by disallowing them as a PC classes. Change Craft Magic Arms and Armor to Mastercraft Arms and Armor, use normal item pricing methods, and set crafting DCs relative to how easy or difficult you want item crafting to be.

Or maybe make more direct changes to the PCs. Give an ability increase every two levels instead of four, create some heroic paths a la Midnight to grant extraordinary powers to the characters. Or maybe give the characters each one or two magic items that are priceless.

There are a lot of things you could do. I think it just depends on exactly what you want when it comes to "low magic."

 

[der_kluge]

Interesting thread.

My theory is that we are no longer 16 years old.

When I was in high school, and DM'd my first real campaign, the game ended with multiple players having artifacts, and them fighting "towns" of people. Very crazy.

We're older now. We don't do that sort of stuff (well, most of us, I guess). Henceforth, we begin looking for a simpler game where we can cultivate better role-playing, and a more gritty feel.

An observation -

I am currently DM'ing a 14th level game. The party is really powerful, and has a broad array of magic items at their disposal. They routinely handle ELs above their level, and a difficult combat encounter can easily last all evening. I started this campaign at 9th level, and our intention was to play to level 20, because none of us had ever done that. In my observations of my group over the last 3 years (started my game in 2003, and we started gaming together in 2000), most of them are more tactical and strategy-oriented. Only a few of them are really, what I would consider, heavily role-playing oriented. Most of them were happy rolling lots of dice, rather than parlaying with NPCs. So, I structured my game to appeal to tactics and crunchy goodness. It worked.

We were missing several players last weekend, and we did a one-shot adlibed game with characters of 3rd level. We "hard-core" rolled them with 3d6 in order, and the highest score in the group was a 15, of which one character had two of them. It was a great game. We used our wits, and the level of role-playing was very high. And because the role of the DM rotated throughout the game, everyone paid close attention, and we never knew what to expect. I think more people in my generation (30-something) are looking to capture this feeling. It's not something that is easily found in a high level game, where the wizard spends most of his time figuring out where to strategically place his next wall of force.


As for low-level crunch, I'm all for magic items. I love 'em. I've found that things like bags of holding, portable holes, and "utility" items like these are way more unbalancing than a +3 sword ever was. A party with magic weapons will do more damage, and hit more often - sure, but they won't destroy your dungeon by walking through walls you didn't intend. Like the above example with sovereign glue - another great "oh crap" item that will often bite the DM in the rear.


Low level crunch
Low level items that can add a lot of flavor are skill enhancing items, or things with story flavor. Like, items that grant +'s to skills. Could even be an item that grants a +2/+2 to a set of skills. That's like granting a free feat, if you think about, but at face value, sounds like a weak magic item. Potions and scrolls are great, because they only have one charge. Armor and weapons can be magical, and not have pluses. Like, an armor can grant a slight increase in movement, or grant a skill or ability increase (even if it's just a +1). Most low level characters will trade out a higher AC for a suit of armor that was +1 charisma, +5 to bluff. That's pretty weak armor in my book, but if it was the only significant magic item in the group, I'd bet they'd find a way to make good use of it.

 

[Desdichado]

I'd also recommend reading Josh Dyal's campaign website. It offers a lot of material you could use in a rare magic setting.

Now, with a new entry, new better organization, and it's own messageboard courtesy of ezboard!

The new index is right here.

 

[hong]

Guess that hasn't been my experience. They don't want to wait for it, they don't want to have to find the necessary Wizard and negotiate.

And it would certainly be true that they want to be able to sell anything, anytime. Without any hassle.

D00d, are you playing Dungeons and Dragons, or d20 Shopkeeper: the Haggling? Let them finesse their inventory off-stage, so you and they can get back to the fun stuff: solving problems, travelling to exotic locations, talking to people, maybe even killing them and taking their stuff. You know, _adventuring_.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I know more than a few people here run low-magic (or whatever you want to call it) campaigns. What I'd like to see is what you actually give to the players when you are starting the campaign. I'm talking about low-magic campaign CRUNCH here.

Okay. Here's the short form for my "low magic" game. FYI, it's heavily modified Krynn after the Chaos War when the gods went AWOL and took their magic with them.The world has lots of low level casters but few non-artificers bother to get past 5th or 6th level.

Magic is common but it doesn't have a massive impact on society because there are no teleports, sendings, or major creation spells.

Many high level caster adventurers are multiclass and the PrCs without full casting progression see a lot more use.

-Only spells of 0-2nd level function
This elminates res/raise, remove blindness/deafness, regenerate, and only paladins get cure disease. Paladins are far more cultivated by the nobility and have a more hospitaler feel. Nations with rulers that dislike paladins have to keep them around to try and stop plagues before they happen.

-Heighten Spell can be used to qualify for PrCs that require the ability to cast spells of 3rd level or higher but does not eliminate the "need 7 divinations" type of requirement.

-Defensive and stat buff spells abound as do minor divinations.

-Item creation is surprisingly unaffected. 75-80% of the non-charged items in the DMG are available. This means I don't have twiddle with the cashflow or eliminate most DR-laden creatures. It does mean that the elemental subtypes (fire, cold, etc) are a bit tougher because you don't have a caster who can drop 10d6 (doubled to 20d6) of elemental pain on them and are generally CR+1.

-Supernatural (Su) and Spell-like (Sp) powers still function, giving some creatures a power boost. I don't use a hard and fast system but it's generally no more than a +1 CR but I haven't had them encounter a Balor or Pitfiend so it could be higher.

-Healing tends to be slow since high level clerics are limited to 2d8+10 CMW.

-Relics, left over magic items from the previous times, are increased in cost by ~ x(spell level^2). So a wand of fireballs costs 9x more than normal. (This isn't a hard/fast, if a player would never consider paying that much neither would NPCs)

-Dragons have taken over. Sorry, but they are just too powerful. The sudden loss of GMW let them attack more or less with impunity since they could just hover high above, breathing on entire communities and decimating the armies.

-Turning undead still works and with the lack of necromantic creation spells, only creatures with Sp have skeletons or zombies. This means that only the mid- to high-level characters ever see undead.

So far this has worked for about 3 years. The players are, of course, discovering the secrets to restore magic to the world (hey, they're heroes, don'cha know) but the setting doesn't seem to wander too far from what you would expect of fantasy.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

For me, I use D20 Modern. The base (and advanced) classes all have their own useful abilities, including class Defense.

No other crunch is really needed.