why the attraction to "low magic"?

[molonel]

Some things shouldn't be taken for granted: Verisimilitude is good. (It is? Says who?)

When you are discussing a work of fiction, or an imagined world, verisimilitude is the quality of being believable and consistent. In a roleplaying game verisimilitude is created and maintained by game mechanics, backstory, history, character and the expectations of both players and the DM/GM. If no one else says it's a good thing, I do, and I think it is both expected and practiced by any good DM. You don't have to know the daily weather in each city, or the average price of barley, because part of creating an interesting work of fiction is that your details are imaginative, consistent and sufficient. You know your stuff, but you don't overdue it.

That doesn't mean that an accountant makes the best DM. But it does mean that an arbitrary DM who feels no obligation to maintain the vivid and continuous dream of a well-made world can ruin a game through whim and ever-changing circumstances.

High-magic means more options. (More high-magic options, I guess, but not more options)

High magic does mean more options. That can be either a good or a bad thing. Low magic is primarily about removing certain elements from the game. Someone may believe that it makes room for other, more necessary and interesting elements, but that's part of what we're discussing here. Options are options.

Magic that doesn't feel special is bad. (It's good. It's just not special)

I actually agree that this is an unspoken assumption. I obviously disagree that all magic needs to feel special.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And for a look at exactly what your average D&D commoner would consider special, check This Thread. It's more +1 swords and full plate, and less charm person.

 

[GlassJaw]

CREATE WATER IS BROKEN

I think I found my new sig. Consider it stolen.

 

[mmadsen]

But it is somewhat misleading to say, "Well, Conan didn't have a bunch of magic items!"

Why is that misleading?

The argument for a low-magic (or rare-magic) campaign -- at least the argument given here -- is that it resembles classic fantasy worlds, where magic seems magical, and where magic isn't so prevalent that it would naturally change society drastically from historical norms.

The fact that Conan is seriously bad-ass in no way works against that.

The problem isn't character power. The problem isn't +5 swords either. The problem is magic stores in every city, spellcasters who can cast dozens of spells per day, every day, etc. The problem is scry/buff/teleport. The problem is grocery lists of magic items, and "useless" +1 items that get sold off for +2 items. Those are the things the clash with the feel of The Lord of the Rings or Conan.

 

[molonel]

Why is that misleading? The argument for a low-magic (or rare-magic) campaign -- at least the argument given here -- is that it resembles classic fantasy worlds, where magic seems magical, and where magic isn't so prevalent that it would naturally change society drastically from historical norms. The fact that Conan is seriously bad-ass in no way works against that.

It's misleading because "low magic" in the case of Conan just means that his magic items are undispellable, can't be stolen and can't be sold. I love Robert E. Howard, but Conan translated into a D&D character would be a twinked-out munchkin from hell on steroids.

Look at the representation I gave, posted here on Enworld. Conan, as a 16-year old boy, is presented with three 18s and a 17. Oh, and he's got two dump stats in Wisdom and Intelligence: as 12 and an 11. Using point buy, that's a 68-point character. A high-powered, standard magic D&D campaign is considered 32- or 36-point stat arrays for characters. Most of their wealth will be aimed over time toward - you guessed it - stat building.

Who needs magic, at that point? A fighter using the elite array of stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) would need 550,000 GP worth of wishes just to get the inherent stat bumps to match a character like that. Or if you broke it down into items, he'd need a +4 Belt of Giant Strength, a set of +4 Gloves of Dexterity, a +4 item of Constitution, and a +6 Cloak of Charisma, and he'd STILL be lagging behind in two stats. That's the cheaper route, and it weighs in at the low, low price of 84K. The starting gold for a 10th level character, by the book, is 49,000 GP.

That's Conan at 1st level. That's just to match his STATS, never mind his gear.

And, frankly, I think the author of the stat array probably low-balled Int and Wis so that Conan wouldn't look like a total twink - even though he is.

How many low magic campaigns have YOU run that started all of your characters with those kind of stats?

The problem isn't character power. The problem isn't +5 swords either. The problem is magic stores in every city, spellcasters who can cast dozens of spells per day, every day, etc. The problem is scry/buff/teleport. The problem is grocery lists of magic items, and "useless" +1 items that get sold off for +2 items. Those are the things the clash with the feel of The Lord of the Rings or Conan.

If the problem isn't character power, then why do all of your examples concern character capabilities? Or were you worried about the monsters in your campaigns doing a scry/buff/teleport or casting dozens of spells per day or discarding magic items that were no longer useful?

Never mind the fact that 3rd Edition D&D is the first version of D&D where the ability to keep items, and continue building on them, is built right into the core rules through item creation feats. If you can't do it yourself, you can pay a party member who can to do it for you. Or pay an NPC. As a high-level player, I found myself building on items more than I ever did in any previous version of the game. I didn't _need_ to trade my Belt of Strength for a better one. I just improved on it.

As Elder-Basilisk already pointed out on page 5, Pippin, from the Lord of the Rings (remember him?) by the end of the adventure had a helm of the tower of the guard, mail of the tower of the guard, a blade of westernesse, a cloak of Lorien, a belt from Lorien, lasting effects of the waters of the ents (inherent stat bumps, anyone?), and a horn given to him by the king. To quote Elder-Basilisk in full, he said, "For fiction, where minor items don't merit mentioning because that would take too long and make the story read more like a character sheet or a treatise on the various components of ancient armors, that's quite a bit. On the other hand, it's not exactly unusual for a LotR character either."

Thus, we see that your claims are entirely false where LotR is concerned. To _you_ they don't feel like Lord of the Rings, but to believe that, you must close your eyes or squint really hard when you compare the two. To _you_ it doesn't feel like Conan. And that's fine, because _you_ are the person running _your_ games. I won't let the facts get in your way. Go on, and believe that.

How many spells could Gandalf cast in a day? What were the stats for his Staff of Power? Did the "players" in LotR happen to find high-magic, item-rich places like Rivendell, or the Barrow Downs, or Lothlorien to gear up before setting out for their adventure? Always. The only difference is that they didn't have to buy their items. They oops, stumbled across items that exactly matched their needs, or - how convenient - someone just gave them to the party for free. Powerful items like Frodo's impenetrable mithral shirt, or Sting, or the Light of Earendil, or useful items like his elven cloak, or his elven waybread, or his elven rope that burned evil creatures and untied itself on command. He was carrying one of the most powerful artifacts the whole of Middle Earth.

That's your idea of a low magic campaign? You don't like scrying? Man, those scrying stones possessed by Denethor, Saruman and Sauron must have really pissed you off. Don't like loads of magical gear and powerful weapons and spells? Don't ever read the Silmarillion.

Conan - oops, how convenient - just happened to get a sword in "The Phoenix on the Sword" that harmed his world's equivalent of summoned outsiders. Thoth Amon had the Ring of Set. Conan just happened to get an amulet that prevented him from being slaughtered with his army by shadows. Small, dinky magic items and treasure had a habit of disappearing between Conan stories. Just like characters dumping useless items, or items they no longer need.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The problem is magic stores in every city, spellcasters who can cast dozens of spells per day, every day, etc. The problem is scry/buff/teleport. The problem is grocery lists of magic items, and "useless" +1 items that get sold off for +2 items. Those are the things the clash with the feel of The Lord of the Rings or Conan.

How does my Common Commoner thread look, man?

94% of the people in a D&D world have never seen a magic sword or a second level spell in their lives (ish).

 

[Mystery Man]

It's misleading because "low magic" in the case of Conan just means that his magic items are undispellable, can't be stolen and can't be sold. I love Robert E. Howard, but Conan translated into a D&D character would be a twinked-out munchkin from hell on steroids.

Look at the representation I gave, posted here on Enworld. Conan, as a 16-year old boy, is presented with three 18s and a 17. Oh, and he's got two dump stats in Wisdom and Intelligence: as 12 and an 11. Using point buy, that's a 68-point character. A high-powered, standard magic D&D campaign is considered 32- or 36-point stat arrays for characters. Most of their wealth will be aimed over time toward - you guessed it - stat building.

Who needs magic, at that point? A fighter using the elite array of stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) would need 550,000 GP worth of wishes just to get the inherent stat bumps to match a character like that. Or if you broke it down into items, he'd need a +4 Belt of Giant Strength, a set of +4 Gloves of Dexterity, a +4 item of Constitution, and a +6 Cloak of Charisma, and he'd STILL be lagging behind in two stats. That's the cheaper route, and it weighs in at the low, low price of 84K. The starting gold for a 10th level character, by the book, is 49,000 GP.

That's Conan at 1st level. That's just to match his STATS, never mind his gear.

And, frankly, I think the author of the stat array probably low-balled Int and Wis so that Conan wouldn't look like a total twink - even though he is.

How many low magic campaigns have YOU run that started all of your characters with those kind of stats?



If the problem isn't character power, then why do all of your examples concern character capabilities? Or were you worried about the monsters in your campaigns doing a scry/buff/teleport or casting dozens of spells per day or discarding magic items that were no longer useful?

Never mind the fact that 3rd Edition D&D is the first version of D&D where the ability to keep items, and continue building on them, is built right into the core rules through item creation feats. If you can't do it yourself, you can pay a party member who can to do it for you. Or pay an NPC. As a high-level player, I found myself building on items more than I ever did in any previous version of the game. I didn't _need_ to trade my Belt of Strength for a better one. I just improved on it.

As Elder-Basilisk already pointed out on page 5, Pippin, from the Lord of the Rings (remember him?) by the end of the adventure had a helm of the tower of the guard, mail of the tower of the guard, a blade of westernesse, a cloak of Lorien, a belt from Lorien, lasting effects of the waters of the ents (inherent stat bumps, anyone?), and a horn given to him by the king. To quote Elder-Basilisk in full, he said, "For fiction, where minor items don't merit mentioning because that would take too long and make the story read more like a character sheet or a treatise on the various components of ancient armors, that's quite a bit. On the other hand, it's not exactly unusual for a LotR character either."

Thus, we see that your claims are entirely false where LotR is concerned. To _you_ they don't feel like Lord of the Rings, but to believe that, you must close your eyes or squint really hard when you compare the two. To _you_ it doesn't feel like Conan. And that's fine, because _you_ are the person running _your_ games. I won't let the facts get in your way. Go on, and believe that.

How many spells could Gandalf cast in a day? What were the stats for his Staff of Power? Did the "players" in LotR happen to find high-magic, item-rich places like Rivendell, or the Barrow Downs, or Lothlorien to gear up before setting out for their adventure? Always. The only difference is that they didn't have to buy their items. They oops, stumbled across items that exactly matched their needs, or - how convenient - someone just gave them to the party for free. Powerful items like Frodo's impenetrable mithral shirt, or Sting, or the Light of Earendil, or useful items like his elven cloak, or his elven waybread, or his elven rope that burned evil creatures and untied itself on command. He was carrying one of the most powerful artifacts the whole of Middle Earth.

That's your idea of a low magic campaign? You don't like scrying? Man, those scrying stones possessed by Denethor, Saruman and Sauron must have really pissed you off. Don't like loads of magical gear and powerful weapons and spells? Don't ever read the Silmarillion.

Conan - oops, how convenient - just happened to get a sword in "The Phoenix on the Sword" that harmed his world's equivalent of summoned outsiders. Thoth Amon had the Ring of Set. Conan just happened to get an amulet that prevented him from being slaughtered with his army by shadows. Small, dinky magic items and treasure had a habit of disappearing between Conan stories. Just like characters dumping useless items, or items they no longer need.

Well, that was an eye opener. I here I thought this conversation was getting boring.

 

[Sir Elton]

One can always go back to basics. Low Magic just means that certain things are unavailable. Magic items are either found or are a gift. They are precious items to the Hero since they are there to help on the quest.

An elven cloak, an elven brooch (as a symbol of love), anduril, narsil, Glamdring, elven waybread . . . all these items were precious to the Fellowship. Conan had his magical items too.

However, most people balk at the idea that magic items have become a commodity. To tell the truth, magic items were treated like a commodity back in Red Box Basic D&D. so magic items as commodities were always a part of D&D. However, this factor of D&D is an option, not a requirement.

I read stories of low fantasy worlds where magic items where non-existent (Hart's Hope, the Robin and the Kestrel). Stories where magic is impossibly high but still wondrous (Xanth series). And stories that are middle ground (A Wizard of Earthsea).

But I think the DMs who post in favor of low magic worlds want a world where they can typically control. Many others say that the rules 'assume' or 'imply' certain conditions. Everyone in Plate Mail, Wizards as far as the eye can see, lots of Monsters, etc. Other people wondered what effect magic would have on the society (as a result, Eberron or Forgotten Realms). However, I think the rules don't 'assume' or 'imply' anything. I created worlds where magical universities existed, and now I'm creating a world where Wizardry as we know it in D&D 3e is just getting started (by imitating Sorcerers, HA!). Do I want a break from the Magical Universities? Sure.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, that was an eye opener. I here I thought this conversation was getting boring.

The only problem with it is that it's only one interpretation. That list of "magical" gear posessed by Pippin (which is actually an amalgam of stuff Pippin and Merry had, for that matter) is very arguably magical rather than obviously so, for instance. Much of it was never described at all as magical or wondrous. The Horn of the Mark (which was Merry's, not Pippins) is never described as more than a pretty horn with a nice-sounding call, and the belt of Lorien is never described at all other than to say it has flowers and leaf motifs. The armor and helm of the tower of the guard is mithril and probably masterwork, but never even hinted at as magical. The swords of Westernesse are the only items the hobbits had that were arguably magical, but that effect only seemed to impact the Ringwraith's themselves, as otherwise they weren't mentioned as anything particularly special. The cloaks of Lorien, oddly enough, could be classified as magical, even though the elves specifically denied it! Most of the rest of his points are similarly arguable. Obviously the folks who claim low magic doesn't resemble the fiction they read, who are a largeish subset of folks, would interpret the textual evidence differently.

 

[Drifter Bob]

That's your idea of a low magic campaign? You don't like scrying? Man, those scrying stones possessed by Denethor, Saruman and Sauron must have really pissed you off. Don't like loads of magical gear and powerful weapons and spells? Don't ever read the Silmarillion.

I'm sorry, but this is pure sophistry.

Few of the items in LOTR were overtly magical, (just because a king gives you a helmet or a mail shirt doesn't make it magic), and the truly powerful magic was very rare and available only to the most powerful characters..

The scrying stones are classic examples. Yes, even in a low magic campaign, the most powerful wizards in the entire world should have the ability to scry, that makes sense.

However, on the other hand, neither Sauruman nor Ganfalf could casually summon demons or fling meteor storms around at will or throw up prismatic walls... and nobody in LOTR seemed to be able to cast ressurection or even raise dead. The magic in there is subtle, for the most part, and the few truly powerful items like the one ring or even sting or that mythril shirt stand out for their importance as a result.

If it was a normal magic D&D game (let alone high magic) the whole group would have had mythril plate armor, they would have teleported to Mount Doom (or at least flew) and they would have slain all those armies of orcs at Helms Deep with cloudkill spells instead of bothering with strategy of any sort...

They also would have stopped at the first town they could find and bought up cases of potions of extra healing, scrolls of monster summoning, wands of fireball, rods of absorption, and +5 cloaks of protection before setting out on their journey.

DB