D&D 3E/3.5 Why the change in DR from 3.0 to 3.5

[Vegepygmy]

However the conditions are vey idealized...I dont think even a great wyrm dragon can take on 900 archers firing at it if the archers are sufficiently spread out

Nor do I. But as you note, such a scenario is very idealized. No actual dragon would ever engage the archers in such a situation, so the argument being made against 3.5 DR assumes conditions that will never actually exist in the game.

Thus, as an argument against 3.5 DR, it fails utterly, because we don't care about hypothetical "problems" that will never actually manifest.

 

[Belzbet]

Thus, as an argument against 3.5 DR, it fails utterly, because we don't care about hypothetical "problems" that will never actually manifest.

Yeah i agree I never intended to argue this (I was just wondering if 1000archers could bring down a dragon). I think in this respect 3.5 DR makes more sense actually. Since it makes sense to me that 1000 archers should be able to take on one dragon, after all not all cities and villages have high level adventurers at their beck and call any time. Sometimes the local militia has to be put too work (that is if a dragon would even attack a city by itself).

 

[Ashtagon]

1000 archers, in a square grid 55 feet between each archer, wouyld occupy a square 1760 feet across. Unless they somehow surrounded the dragon on all sides (dragons aren't that stupid, sorry), half of them will be out of range.

The hypothetical ideal scenario for the archers couldn't happen.

 

[James the Newbie]

Also their spell casting ability, if its a green dragon, mirror image and summon swarm both work to cause some more advantages. Obscuring mist works nicely to half its chances of being hit.

Even then a green dragon is more likly to run, and plot each ones individual demise x)

And if we take to a golden wyrm who off the bat can summon level 8 and 9 creatures and cover himself by using greater invisibility, well then they would be doomed. Then if it used more AoE Spells like summon meteors (Not great, but good AoE vs this level)

 

[Fallenibilis]

I personally really like Monte Cooks take on DR.

Damage Reduction Redux

Fallenibilis

 

[Ashtagon]

Something I'm considering...

DR ##/whatever becomes DR ##/-.

Where a specific item or items would have bypassed DR, attacks with that type instead inflict an additional 1d6 per 5 points of DR that the creature originally had. Exception: DR that is bypassed by magic does not grant any additional vulnerability to magic weapons under this paragraph.

For example, DR 10/silver becomes DR 10/-, and the creature takes 2d6 additional damage any time it is hit by a silver weapon. DR 5/magic simply becomes DR 5/-.

Finally, a magic weapon can bypass 5 points of DR for each plus it has.

For example, a paladin is fighting a vampire (normally DR 10/silver and magic). Under this system, the vampire has DR 10/-, and takes 2d6 additional damage from a silver weapon (the magic component of the RAW DR is ignored in the conversion). The paladin's minimum "perfect" weapon would be a +2 silver weapon. The silver would inflict an additional 2d6 damage, and the +2 enhancement bonus is just enough to completely bypass the vampire's DR.



Opinions?

 

[Belzbet]

1000 archers, in a square grid 55 feet between each archer, wouyld occupy a square 1760 feet across. Unless they somehow surrounded the dragon on all sides (dragons aren't that stupid, sorry), half of them will be out of range.

The hypothetical ideal scenario for the archers couldn't happen.

Because of a dragons magic, etc. I dont really think 1000archers can take on a dragon older than adult (or at least older than old) but in this scenario we are only talking about the 50 archers that passed their will save for frightful presence. The other 950 that get back into the game are just a plus, we can say that 50 archers can spread out 55ft from each other and still be in range of an attacking dragon, they may form a circle or a zigzag pattern, etc.' range increment of a longbow is 100ft and max range increment id 10 (or 1000ft) (and the range penalty to attack is not an issue since they can only ht on a crit. anyway). Also, a dragon may be smart but sometimes a dragon attacks a village for one reason or another (whay if they are qeas quested or dominated or simply just hungry, etc.). With this kind of reasoning we would say that a group of PC's can VERY RARELY kill a dragon (since they are SOOO smart they will retreat if their lives are threatened, and since they have AWESOME overland speed there are few PC groups that can keep up with a dragon; maybe this is how some DM's play dragons but...). Maybe they are very smart but I dont think the writers intended a dragons Int. to be a trump card for the battles that a dragon cannot beat (a dragon would never do this since they have an INT of 18, a dragon would retreat right when they see the number of archers, etc...)

 

[TanisFrey]

1000 archers, in a square grid 55 feet between each archer, wouyld occupy a square 1760 feet across. Unless they somehow surrounded the dragon on all sides (dragons aren't that stupid, sorry), half of them will be out of range.

The hypothetical ideal scenario for the archers couldn't happen.

Yes, it can happen. That thought experiment assumed that the dragon appeared at very short range to the archers.

Forgotten Realms have the occasional Dragon swarms. Every so often a flight of evil dragons occur and devastate an area. It occurs near enough Waterdeep or Corymr that an army is raised and sent after a dragon or two that have lingered after the attack. We start with enough wizards and clerics to provide the 1000 archers the arrows at the start of the fight and most of the archers have improved fear saves, via a couple of paladins and a bunch of bards singing. First round or two all the archers can fire then the young adult gets close enough for the fear to effect most of the archers. Yes the archers are firing at extreme ranges and are looking for the natural 20 to hit. About 1 or 2 in 20 stand and fight when the fear aura hits them. In this situation the army could take out a young adult of any color per engagement, with the possibility of 2 or 3 of them or larger dragons.

Mostly likely target of such a fight would be in this order White, Black, Blue or Green or Red. Whites and Blacks are dumber than the rest.

 

[Endur]

I think 3.5 was a major improvement with regards to the special materials.

I don't see much of a difference between the +1/+2/+3 vs. magic, especially when you consider that Greater Magic Weapon was a default spell for games at 5th level and above in 3.0.

I like Demons and Fey being worried by cold iron.

I like Silver for lycanthropes, etc.

yes, you have the golf bag mentality. Yes, you have an archer who has a quiver of regular arrows, a quiver of silver tipped arrows, and a quiver of cold iron arrows.

Its cool though. Especially when nobody in the party has a weapon of the right material, and they have to improvise.

Improvising a cold iron weapon out of a chain and padlock is cool.

 

[Endur]

The dragon is down to 77HP (or 111 with fightersor rangers without composite bows). This will continue and the dragon will die.

However the conditions are vey idealized: EVERY ranger has dragons as their favored enemy AND rapid shot, the archers are spread out enough so that the dragon can only kill one and the dragon gets no cover, also this is merely an adult dragon (a great wyrm has over 700HP so may be able to survive all 50 rounds) (range is not an issue since critical hits are the only attacks that matter)
On the other hand some of the other 950 archers will snap out of being frightened within 10 rounds and then the dragon will be in BIG trouble. I dont think even a great wyrm dragon can take on 900 archers firing at it if the archers are sufficiently spread out

A more likely scenario is that the Dragon ignores the 50 archers that made their saves against fear. The Dragon pursues and uses his breath weapon on the 950 archers that failed.

Because the 950 archers are running full speed (x4) away from the dragon, they are also running away from their 50 buddies that made the fear save. So the 50 buddies will have to move or run to catch up and be in range to be able to shoot at the dragon.

Also, how many spell casters are you going to have casting spells on quivers full of arrows? It takes a lot of spell casters to arm 1000 archers. And some of the spell casters are also fleeing for their lives.

That said, I quite agree that 50 archers who are armed with magic arrows and are immune to fear are a potential threat to a dragon.