Why the D20 system has no merits and flaws system ?

buzz said:

As for your rich princess, go ahead and make her rich. The DM then just needs to compensate by having your group face more powerful opponents (to counter all of the expensive gear you'll have access to because of her wealth). Or force the PC to take levels of aristocrat, which is weaker than the average PC class; sort of balances out... kinda. :)

Isn't the starting gold for an aristocrat significantly above that of other classes?
 

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Saeviomagy said:
Isn't the starting gold for an aristocrat significantly above that of other classes?
Aristocrats start with 6d8x10. The most a PC class can start with is 6d4x10. It's more, but not extremely so. Even maxed out, it's not enough for a suit of non-masterwork half plate.

In a pure RP'ing sense, though, it should allow the PC access to resources that a "commoner" PC woulnd't have.
 

I like the system presented in The Book of Distinctions and Drawbacks. Each flaw yields either a feat or 4 skill points, but you really do pay for them. The flaws are basically split into primary and secondary. The primary flaws are all mechanics based while the secondary flaws are roleplaying oriented. An example of the former is deaf and an example of the latter is boastful. I mostly limit PCs to the primary flaws since I don't want to have to worry about forcing them to play their characters a certain way. The option is there however.

There are also some really flavorful race and class specific flaws like having an iron bane for an elf and requiring sacrificial prayers for a cleric.

Nick
 


buzz said:

Aristocrats start with 6d8x10. The most a PC class can start with is 6d4x10. It's more, but not extremely so. Even maxed out, it's not enough for a suit of non-masterwork half plate.

In a pure RP'ing sense, though, it should allow the PC access to resources that a "commoner" PC woulnd't have.

Remember that an aristocrat is an NPC class. If you wanted a PC class along those lines, beefing up the money or adding a "favors" check that goes up by level and allows access to resources and such from friends and family in low places would seem apropos.

On the general subject of points for flaws...

Having had the benefit of running the same players over many years in various systems including several DnD editions, MNM, vampire, hero and so on, I can say that the best character's i have had submiutted have been for the non-flaw systems.

In the flaw-fer-points systems, the players almost invariably pattern their character around the pre-packaged flaws and also almost invariably tend togravitate towards the flaws less significant in play effects. I am sure anyone experienced with HERo has seen this, as thatsystem is one of the more egregious cases.

In the "no flaws for points systems" like DND, then every aspect of the character and his background is there not for points, not to get another dice of damage or another feat, but because the player WANTS IT. It represent something he WANTS to add to his character. I get character backgrounds which are richer, more complete and frought with personal biases and intrigues and old enemies and so forth. All of these personality traits become a part of the character the player embraces, as opposed to something he felt he needed to tag on in order to "measure up" so to speak.

One other difference I have seen is that in the no point for flaw system, the character's evolve more. They work through those issues in game. They see their hunted eventually get hunted down and handled as a course of the story and move on. This is purely a roleplaying issue. There is no sudden scrounging for points to buy off the flaw or seeking for a new phobia to replace the old one that you see in systems where the flaw was worth points and the accounting is demanding recompensation for finally killing your archnemesis.

In the future, in cases where i will use various forms of merits and flaws for character and power building, i will never use a "loan shark" mechanic (get extra points now for taking the flaw and expect circumstance to "collect" later in the form of bad things happoening in play) but will use a "no pain no gain" style system where flaws are taken outside of accounting but each time the flaw significantly impacts the character he gets a reward, like say a hero point. This looks to turn the focus for player-thinking-about-flaws towards seeing "how often this flaw will occur in play and procude real problems" as a positive value, not the downside of a flaw that needs to be dodged.

YMMV
 

It seems to me like the original topic of "why doesn't the d20 system have a merits and flaws system" is gradually sliding down into another "This is why d20 stinks" thread.
 

I think merit/flaw systems are inherently "flawed" and unbalanced. For the most part, players select merits which will benefit them the most and choose flaws which are not really flaws for their character. It just doesn't need to be a mechanic.

You want to be blind? Fine...apply the effects of the blindness spell to your character.

Oh, You want something in return for being blind? Heh, go figure.

It's nearly guaranteed that the rest of the characters abilities, feats, spells, and items will be geared towards minimizing the characters blindness disadvantage.
 

I never seen a reason to reward roleplaying. If you didn't enjoy roleplaying you wouldn't play RPGs roleplaying if fun thats reward enough.
 

After reading all of this, I think the system I like the most is the "no point for flaws", and the rewards are when the flaw comes into play.

Actually, we have no such "system" in our campaign, but we tend to do it without thinking about it. It is rare that a DM doesn't take into account the PCs' background, and such elements as criminal ties, blind and others get weaved into the plotline. I don't think that we ever got special XP for it, it was just part of the roleplaying awards.

Since the game seems to be lethal for low-level characters, I just thought that if I played a one-legged monk, I could get some kind of bonus so that I could try to survive... that is without house rules.

Thank you all for your comments!
 

I never seen a reason to reward roleplaying. If you didn't enjoy roleplaying you wouldn't play RPGs roleplaying if fun thats reward enough.

Bagpuss, I don't want to start a thread about RP XP awards, if you don't want them, don't use them. In my group, we prefer to award XP for staying in character and have fun than for lucky die rolls. D&D is the only game I know wich rewards by-the-kill.

And for those who care, as far as level-oriented games, I think d20 is one of the best system. So it doesn't suck IMHO.
 

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