Why the focus on criticals?
- Thread starter Andor
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Ooh! Math! Let me play!Storm-Bringer said:
Probability of getting 15 or better on an open-ended d4 roll: 1/4*1/4*1/4*1/2=1/132 or about 0.75%. (That's a 4 on roll 1, 4 on roll 2, 4 on roll 3, and 3 or 4 on roll 4.)
Probability of getting 15 or better on an open-ended d6 roll:
1/6*1/6*4/6=4/216=1/54 or about 1.85%. (That's a 6 or roll 1, 6 on roll 2, and 3 or better on roll 4.)
While you are massively more likely to get a maximal roll from the d4, max rolls are not the largest contributor to average damage. The average damage formula would be a much more complicated critter, with some heavy contributions from moderate damage strikes. The d12, for example, has a much higher chance of doing 10 damage than the d4 does.
I'd be happy to work out and share those average damages if there is any interest.
Silverblade The Ench
First Post
...use trip, push, pull and tactics, group enemies up and AOE 'em!
This isn't 3rd ed: roast 'em in droves, cleave with abandon!
Mince a Minion, erase an elite, slice a skirmisher, muhahaha!
Crits that create effects, will do wonders
Like I said, it's like, sort of, an MMORPG, if you get "On crit" effects worked out nice, the slaughter will be schweeeet!
It's a good thing!! Ever seen Conan the Destroyer, the battle in the Crypt? Oh heck yeah, that's D&D!
Tons of minions and normal mobs jump you, say the fighter does an AOE that trips or pushes...the cleric one that does a boost to attacks or hit points, the wizard sets off a toasty burst tha tonly harms enemies...mmm...
"I love the smell of Roast Kobold in th emorning, it smells like...XP!"
This isn't 3rd ed: roast 'em in droves, cleave with abandon!
Mince a Minion, erase an elite, slice a skirmisher, muhahaha!
Crits that create effects, will do wonders
Like I said, it's like, sort of, an MMORPG, if you get "On crit" effects worked out nice, the slaughter will be schweeeet!
It's a good thing!! Ever seen Conan the Destroyer, the battle in the Crypt? Oh heck yeah, that's D&D!
Tons of minions and normal mobs jump you, say the fighter does an AOE that trips or pushes...the cleric one that does a boost to attacks or hit points, the wizard sets off a toasty burst tha tonly harms enemies...mmm...
"I love the smell of Roast Kobold in th emorning, it smells like...XP!"
Celebrim
Legend
It's drama/perception driven.
By giving lots of (largely useless) powers that give extra damage on a critical, they can excite the sort of person who is excited by criticals themselves.
"OMG...I'm doing 9d10+9d12 damage!!!"
They get this big impressive moment where they can be the center of attention because they did like 95 damage in one hit.
And it can create stories of the sort, "I thought we were doomed, but then Bob rolled that critical and dropped the BBEG."
But on the whole, I'm rather unimpressed by the whole 'do bonus damage' on a critical thing.
Assuming you hit 50% of the time, critical 10% of the time when you hit, then a +1 bonus to damage on every attack is worth 10 bonus damage on a critical. So for example, a bonus of 6d10 damage on your criticals is worth about +3 damage on every attack. Which is more impressive, a +3 bonus to damage or a +6d10 bonus to damage on a critical?
Which feels more impressive?
That perception is critical to selling people on 4e, because there is alot of illusion of variaty going on. From a balance standpoint, you could have made all the damage enhancing powers just a flat +X to damage. But as someone else had said, that would have made everything feel like a variation on 'Iron Will'. So instead, we have one power that grants +4 damage, another that grants damage equal to your strength bonus, another that grants +1d8 damage, and another that grants +4d10 damage on a critical hit.
The real irony for me is that supposedly much of the design was supposed to reduce dice rolling, and yet because of the need to create certain perceptions at high levels we have people throwing 5-15 dice on every attack.
By giving lots of (largely useless) powers that give extra damage on a critical, they can excite the sort of person who is excited by criticals themselves.
"OMG...I'm doing 9d10+9d12 damage!!!"
They get this big impressive moment where they can be the center of attention because they did like 95 damage in one hit.
And it can create stories of the sort, "I thought we were doomed, but then Bob rolled that critical and dropped the BBEG."
But on the whole, I'm rather unimpressed by the whole 'do bonus damage' on a critical thing.
Assuming you hit 50% of the time, critical 10% of the time when you hit, then a +1 bonus to damage on every attack is worth 10 bonus damage on a critical. So for example, a bonus of 6d10 damage on your criticals is worth about +3 damage on every attack. Which is more impressive, a +3 bonus to damage or a +6d10 bonus to damage on a critical?
Which feels more impressive?
That perception is critical to selling people on 4e, because there is alot of illusion of variaty going on. From a balance standpoint, you could have made all the damage enhancing powers just a flat +X to damage. But as someone else had said, that would have made everything feel like a variation on 'Iron Will'. So instead, we have one power that grants +4 damage, another that grants damage equal to your strength bonus, another that grants +1d8 damage, and another that grants +4d10 damage on a critical hit.
The real irony for me is that supposedly much of the design was supposed to reduce dice rolling, and yet because of the need to create certain perceptions at high levels we have people throwing 5-15 dice on every attack.
MindWanderer
First Post
Now I want to play a fighter/rogue... or a ranger/rogue....WalterKovacs said:
Except that only heavy blades and axes can be vorpal. And I didn't see you testing the 2d6 Greataxe on there, which I would bet is pretty darn good. Are there any 2d4 heavy blades or axes?Storm-Bringer said:
Duelpersonality
First Post
Falchion and Glaive are both 2d4 and heavy blades (and the falchion is High Crit!). Mmm...tasty.MindWanderer said:
Also, it's not about the odds or averages. It's about that one story that gets told over and over about the guy who vorpal'd the pit fiend to bloodied in one swing.
Storm-Bringer
First Post
Of course, but the point is: Higher dice are not automatically better for open-ended rolls. Typically, smaller dice will provide as good results. I am not the expert in math, but:MindWanderer said:
I would be quite interested.theNater said:
Xsjado
First Post
While it is true that feel is an important factor here, doing slightly more average damage to each opponent isn't necessarily as useful as being able to do massive damage to one opponent.Celebrim said:
It all depends on the situation. Statistically they work out the same but in practice a crit in the right place can make all the difference. If you've ever played TF2 you'll know how effective an uber can be at the right time. Its slightly different in that case because there is more control, but the ability to be invulnerable for 10 seconds could be balanced the same way by making everyone slightly more resistant to damage. However, that would be less fun and tactically a well paced uber can break a stalemate. The game also has criticals and these are also game making events. Being killed in one shot when you were on full health is very frustrating, especially if your living could have prevented an enemy capture. So random but massive amounts of damage do have an effect on the game, beyond mere statistics. In TF2 having the luck to make several crits in a row can win a match, and the same is equally true of DnD.
RE: vorpal dice
While small dice have a higher chance of doing their maximum amount of damage, bigger dice will always do more total damage even if it isn't their maximum. A d4 could explode once to give you 7 damage but a d8 has a 25% chance to at least that much or more. A d10 or d12 can also easily do that much damage without exploding at all.
