D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[ECMO3]

And slowly, slowly we've seen literally every factor which restricts and limits caster stripped away, and their baseline power actually significantly increased with stuff like cantrips,

I agree with this.

it's still playing too hard into a double-standard which doesn't really help anyone or make the game cooler or anything (and the huge baseline power increase from scaling cantrips sort of obviates the lower number of higher-level spells in a weird way, at least in the higher-level play I've run). It's just a sort of sad accident of design

I disagree with this and it does help and does make the game be cooler and more fun IMO. It is no coincedence that 5E is the most fun version to play (and most successful). Stripping the shackles off the caster to alllow them to shine brighter than the other classes is a part of this IMO.

I mean a Wizard now can use a light crossbow right out of the gate, putting them as good as a basic martial in damage right in tier 1. Cantrip scaling and the blade cantrips in particular keep them significant the entire game while not losing anything in terms of leveled spells.

 

[overgeeked]

Oh 5e fireball, you silly thing.

"The sheet of paper revealing all your contacts and secrets is on the ground, and Lord Badguy is picking it up."

"I fireball it!"

"The fireball hits the paper straight on as he holds it in his hands reading it. The ground nearby and wall behind him is scorched, but the paper is unharmed."

"!?!?! He isn't hurt at all!?!?! The paper isn't burned!?!?! Did he use magic!?!?"

"Nope, he just picked it up."

"!?!"

"Don't you know how fireball works? And how would you know if he was hurt, you could guess the fireball wasn't strong enough to drop him to 0."

"But that doesn't make any sense!"

"Welcome to the rules of D&D. What, are you new?"

 

[Micah Sweet]

Something to keep in mind is that there is not a need for magic to be powerful at all, it just needs to be interesting, in the same way that monk punches don't need to be stronger than a sword. Magic could just mean that a physically weak character can keep up, even if all they can do is pull rabbits out of hats to confuse the enemy.

The history of D&D requires magic to be powerful. It does  not require it to be functionally without restriction, which has been the design path in most WotC work.

 

[Alzrius]

It was not satire.

When I say grounded I mean grounded in the sense that the explanation for how they can do it is realistic. Which it is: It's plainly realistic to be able to train yourself until you are good. It is grounded in the sense that there is no mumbo-jumbo.

The entire point (i.e. the satire) of the training regimen that Saitama undertook is that it doesn't explain how he became so strong. His routine was that, every single day for three years, he would:

• Do one hundred pushups.
• Do one hundred sit ups.
• Do one hundred squats.
• Do a ten-kilometer run.
• Not use the heating or air conditioning in his apartment (to build up mental strength).

As Genos notes, that shouldn't grant the power to be able to vaporize mountains with a single punch:

 

[Maxperson]

Magic is supreme, physics breaking and magical.

So what's wrong with a martial warrior honing his skill to the point of becoming supernaturally proficient with it?

Evidence:

Literature:
1940s - Gandalf and Saruman are more powerful than any of the martials in that adventure. Bilbo gets magic and is able to do truely amazing things with it.

Gildor Inglorion and Glorfindel could kill them both with swords, and in the case of Glorfindel, at the same time. Glorfindel killed multiple Balrogs and Gandalf couldn't survive even one.

1970s - Elric's sorcery and his magic sword are more powerful than his martial abilties (and he is genrally a martial in a low magic world even)

Elric's sorcery is slow. If someone jumps him with a sword, it's the martial aspect that's going to win the fight. The sword only matters if it hits and tastes blood.

1990s - Raistlan elevated himself to literal God status through magic

And yet Chaos the supreme power was only defeated because Tasslehoff stabbed him in the foot with a knife.

2010s - The power displayed by Gromph, Pickel and the young Ivonnel eclipse anything the martial companions of the hall can do and when they do match up against magical foes it is usually by leveraging magic.

Yeah, bad writing isn't somethin you should lean on. The power displayed in some of those Forgotten Realms books also eclipses most things in the Epic Handbook. It was almost as if the authors had never played D&D and didn't know the limitations of things.

Movies:
DNDHAT - All of the spectacular achievments are done by magic. Literally turning an entire city into undead, the timestop spell, the resurection. Guile and wit play a part to help carry the day for the mundane characters, but Holga isn't doing anything that is even close to what is done by Sofina, Simon or Doric.

Here you have a good example, but it's not one that says that martials can't be super strong, either. They heroes rely on and are in awe of the martial prowess of the paladin.

Can you provide a single example in movies or literature where martials can do things physically that rival what casters of equal level can accomplish? Even one example from fiction?

Easily.

Nine Princes in Amber. Martial fights are much more prominent and reliable than magic. It's skill with the blade or physical prowess(Gerard) that are most prominent.

The Black Company. They take out the most powerful wizards in existence on a regular basis with martial plans and execution.

King Arthur.

Achilles.

Hercules.

Blade.

Many of the martials in comic books.

You might be tempted to say, but they were mostly demigods or had super powered strength, to which I reply so what. You can hone martial prowess and ability to supernatural levels and contend with magic. You're still martial, but just a lot more powerful than Joe Average the Swordsman.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh 5e fireball, you silly thing.

"The sheet of paper revealing all your contacts and secrets is on the ground, and Lord Badguy is picking it up."

"I fireball it!"

"The fireball hits the paper straight on as he holds it in his hands reading it. The ground nearby and wall behind him is scorched, but the paper is unharmed."

"!?!?! He isn't hurt at all!?!?! The paper isn't burned!?!?! Did he use magic!?!?"

"Nope, he just picked it up."

"!?!"

"Don't you know how fireball works? And how would you know if he was hurt, you could guess the fireball wasn't strong enough to drop him to 0."

Which is why things in my game being held will burn if flammable.

I like more realism than 5e presents by default and the fact that fireball exists doesn't stop that or make realism somehow not a thing.

 

[Reynard]

That isn’t what interactive storytelling is. It happens during play, not after the fact. Story is also just fictional events, characters, situations, etc. in the moment, not necessarily after the fact.

Freedom of action is meaningless without story elements. Like literally it doesn’t mean anything. Taking actions within the fiction in any sense is storytelling. Without those elements, you’re just moving game pieces, which no TTRPG actually does. Even the most tactical TTRPGs have characters with names and aesthetics and other various story elements, and even the mechanics are stand ins for in-character action description. “I attack the troll with my [name of ability] move” Is storytelling.

That is a definition so broad as to be meaningless.

 

[Maxperson]

Neither of them is a wizard, they're angels, both of them. So comparing to PCs in a game is completely to misunderstand Tolkien's lore. I guess you've never read LotR?

Both are wizards AND angels. They are angels of the order of the Istari who are wizards. Gandalf casts magical spells(fireballs, lightning bolts, knock, and more) and also has his own innate angelic powers.

 

[Incenjucar]

The basic premise of One Punch Man is that he somehow broke his "limiter". In theory anyone else doing the same would be just as powerful.

 

[Cadence]

The Black Company. They take out the most powerful wizards in existence on a regular basis with martial plans and execution.

Croaker might admit that Goblin, One-eye, and Silent do help a little (when the former aren't completely drunk and the later is 't too broody).

And there was once or twice that their walking and thinking anti-magic shell helped a bit.