D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Maxperson]

I mean, Tolkien seems to back Tom Bombadil here, but seems to see Bombadil as like unto the Chad meme, "Refuses to elaborate further" - specifically he's intended to be at odds with the general story and impossible to quite fit into it.

Oh indeed someone already did that meme:

View attachment 294136

Yeah. Tolkien backs him, but Tolkien was all over the map with additions and changes. I'm going with the books released and the Silmarillion doesn't leave room for him to be older.

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm right. Just that I view him that way personally for those reasons.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This seems rather close to claiming that the following activities don't count as playing a roleplaying game:

• Classic D&D play - that sort of "pawn stance" dungeoncrawl that emphasises player care and deliberation in play.

I don’t see how.

• Playing through an adventure path (which, after all, is almost entirely "pre-packaged story").

This seems more like nitpicking wording than anything else. Playing an AP isn’t like playing a game of Pandemic. The players can and usually do make unexpected choices, use different characters from another play through, and otherwise tell thier own story within the framework of the adventure.

• Preferring to play D&D (or other RPGs) as a sort of fantasy life sim, with no intent to "tell a story interactively" except insofar as one is describing the fictional goings-on of fictional characters in a fictional world.

That is interactive storytelling.

I rather doubt that's what you mean to imply, but it come across as pretty easy to get from defining RPGs as centering around "interactive storytelling" - especially centering around "telling a new [story] as a group activity" - to excluding those kinds of play.

Another issue I have with this definition is that there are definitely games that exist for the purpose of "tell[ing] a story interactively" - indeed, specifically for "telling a new [story] as a group activity"! - such as Tell Tale, that are definitely not RPGs. In other words, to my mind, simply centering RPG play on "interactive storytelling" is insufficient to define RPGs as a type of game.

And yet nothing you’ve presented refutes it.

The fact that other games can also have the same purpose individually has no impact of any kind on the fact that D&D ‘s point and purpose is interactive group storytelling.

 

[Umbran]

Most of them. I'd argue that Melian and Bombadil(who absent anything conclusive I consider maia)...

The Ring has absolutely no effect on Bombadil. Meanwhile, Gandalf, who is a Maia, refuses to touch the Ring due to its likely effect.

Gandalf is supposed to be wisest of the Maiar. So, either Gandalf was wrong to worry about it, Bombadil is unexplainedly special, even for a Maia, or Bombadil's something else.

The first of those seems like a poor guess - it is Tolkien saying, "I will be secretive about Gandalf being wrong." The second is basically the same thing - Tolkien playing games without telling the reader what game he's playing - "I won't tell you what Bombadil is, but will keep it in my pocket that he's a Maia, but a special Maia". The last is just being mysterious, which seems rather more in line with Bombadil's apparent role in the story.

 

[Maxperson]

The Ring has absolutely no effect on Bombadil. Meanwhile, Gandalf, who is a Maia, refuses to touch the Ring due to its likely effect.

Gandalf is supposed to be wisest of the Maiar. So, either Gandalf was wrong to worry about it, Bombadil is unexplainedly special, even for a Maia, or Bombadil's something else.

The first of those seems like a poor guess - it is Tolkien saying, "I will be secretive about Gandalf being wrong." The second is basically the same thing - Tolkien playing games without telling the reader what game he's playing. The last is just being mysterious, which seems rather more in line with Bombadil's apparent role in the story.

Maia were varied in power and temperament. Aurien the fire maia was the only one of her kind left in Aman. The rest with their fiery natures fell from grace and became Balrogs. Even if Gandalf is the wisest, that doesn't mean that he would not be tempted by it. Bombadil on the other hand simply does not have a shred of caring about such things in his nature. The ring can't tempt what isn't there to be tempted.

 

[Umbran]

Maia were varied in power and temperament. Aurien the fire maia was the only one of her kind left in Aman. The rest with their fiery natures fell from grace and became Balrogs. Even if Gandalf is the wisest, that doesn't mean that he would not be tempted by it. Bombadil on the other hand simply does not have a shred of caring about such things in his nature. The ring can't tempt what isn't there to be tempted.

Again, this is then Tolkien saying, "These things are all of the same class. I will not tell you what that class is in the main text, and I will make some members of that class special, without telling you that either."

Admittedly, this was written before most genre conventions were set. But that still seems a weird way to communicate to an audience.

I am not sure why we should have Bombadil be a Maia, specifically. What's the rationale for him being a Maia, instead of, say, a member of the Valar? Or something else? What about him says "Maia", specifically?

 

[Maxperson]

Again, this is then Tolkien saying, "These things are all of the same class. I will not tell you what that class is in the main text, and I will make some members of that class special, without telling you that either."

Admittedly, this was written before most genre conventions were set. But that still seems a weird way to communicate to an audience.

I am not sure why we should have Bombadil be a Maia, specifically. What's the rationale for him being a Maia, instead of, say, a member of the Valar? Or something else? What about him says "Maia", specifically?

First there was only Eru. Then Eru brought the Ainur into being. There were the greater Ainur(Valar) who are all named. Then there were the lesser Ainur(maia) of whom almost none are named, but vary in power a great deal. Some of the maia still have a ton of power. Since we know who all of the Valar are, he can't be one of those. The Silmarillion doesn't mention any other types of Ainur who were created.

It's possible that beings like Bombadil and Ungoliant were brought into being by the song sung by the Ainur that created the universe, but then his claim to have been around since before the Maiar would be even less true. Since the Maiar aren't bound to be truthful, it seems likely that he's simply one of those and he lied in the song.

 

[Cadence]

First there was only Eru. Then Eru brought the Ainur into being. There were the greater Ainur(Valar) who are all named. Then there were the lesser Ainur(maia) of whom almost none are named, but vary in power a great deal. Some of the maia still have a ton of power. Since we know who all of the Valar are, he can't be one of those. The Silmarillion doesn't mention any other types of Ainur who were created.

The Silmarillion is written by the elves and from what the named Valar shared with them. I'm guessing that not all of the highest order of being chose to enter the world and so there would be no need for the elves to ever know about them. Could one have snuck in late? And iirc it feels clear that everything that was put into the songs wasn't understood by the Ainu so maybe Bombadil, for example, was something the big I themselves wanted there and the Valar missed.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Ok sorry for just barging in here again but can someone briefly explain how Gandalf is relevant? I'm not being sarcastic here. Why are we talking about Gandalf? Genuine question.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Ok sorry for just barging in here again but can someone briefly explain how Gandalf is relevant? I'm not being sarcastic here. Why are we talking about Gandalf? Genuine question.

Its a sideshow from the discussion about mage power.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Ok sorry for just barging in here again but can someone briefly explain how Gandalf is relevant? I'm not being sarcastic here. Why are we talking about Gandalf? Genuine question.

it was originally about DnD classes being represented in it's inspirational literature, and how gandalf wans't actually representation of a DnD wizard because he and his abilities actually parrallel what would be an angel or thereabouts.