Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Maxperson]

I try to talk about your arguments, which sometimes involve things like your claims of all wizards going to go adventuring for monster parts for spells (which I proved they don't, since spells don't require monster parts)

I'm glad you proved something I never said, wrong. I very rarely use absolutes, so if you are making a claim about me that involves an absolute, like "...all Wizards...," you will almost always(see the lack of an absolute there?) be wrong and mistating my position.

But unless you are willing to point out the differences between the specifics you said and the general summaries other are making, then you can't go around claiming we are all wrong about what you said.

I've corrected you guys multiple times on these things and I'm tired of it.

And at that point, does it matter if it is "all" or not? I mean, it is enough to alter the social fabric of the entire world, who cares about the specific number of merchants and nobles.

Yes it does matter. The social fabric changes whether it's 1%, 5%, 10%, 25%, etc. Any significant increase is going to have a sizable impact on the social fabric of the world.

 

[Maxperson]

(I'm going back to the original topic here a bit, continue on your discussion until you get tired of arguing with Maxperson)
So, how would you scale something like Telepathic Bond or Detect Thoughts? Easy. You just have more people be effected as you gain levels, and add on additional mechanical benefits to using those abilities. Possibly someone who you're bound to telepathically can use your Intelligence score for Intelligence Saving Throws, and other stuff like that when you reach certain levels.

And also increase range and possibly depth. With depth I mean that perhaps with X points(or whatever mechanic) you can read surface thoughts, with X+2(or whatever) you can probe deeper and pull out memories.

I'm a big fan of powers scaling to become more powerful, but it has to be done right to prevent being overpowered.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

And also increase range and possibly depth. With depth I mean that perhaps with X points(or whatever mechanic) you can read surface thoughts, with X+2(or whatever) you can probe deeper and pull out memories.

I'm a big fan of powers scaling to become more powerful, but it has to be done right to prevent being overpowered.

And that's why we have game designers. So they can design the game, and not be overpowered after playtesting and reworking it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Except, I don't want them to cast spells. The subclass focused on telepathy would have access to at will telepathy at level one, with additional benefits and abilities as you level up. There would be features that refer to your level in order to function as an ability.

Maybe the subclass will, but what about if the telekinesis subclass psion wants to have some telepathy abilities?

And, if the Telepathy subclass gets at-will telepathy at range of 60 ft, when should they get the ability to compete with the Telepathy 8th level spell?

Other than a desire not to have spells at all, it seems like using spells as a baseline is an easier design route to work with.

I'm glad you proved something I never said, wrong. I very rarely use absolutes, so if you are making a claim about me that involves an absolute, like "...all Wizards...," you will almost always(see the lack of an absolute there?) be wrong and mistating my position.

Right, "not all wizards". But you did make a claim that some wizards would, when in reality, it is "nearly zero wizards" because no spell requires monster parts to cast except for the three I listed. And from the PHB it was only Guards and Wards, a high level spell that almost no wizard would have access to (I believe it is a 5th level spell, so you need to be at least 9th level, and decide to have that spell, and then decide to go looking for Umber hulks yourself)

But yes, I was completely wrong because I said "all"

I've corrected you guys multiple times on these things and I'm tired of it.

Welcome to the internet Max. You have to repeat yourself a lot.

Yes it does matter. The social fabric changes whether it's 1%, 5%, 10%, 25%, etc. Any significant increase is going to have a sizable impact on the social fabric of the world.

So, we are wrong to say "all merchants" that is misrepresenting your point. But 1% of all merchants in the world teaching magic to their children will (within a few thousand years) create Eberron in every setting.

So, what, we can't say you claimed too many, because you can't claim too few? 1% is nothing. But that would be enough to create Eberron by the time the game starts?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Maybe the subclass will, but what about if the telekinesis subclass psion wants to have some telepathy abilities?

If the Psionokinetic would like to use telepathy, be a Kalashtar, Verdan, Ghostwise halfing, or other telepathic race, or multiclass to GOOlock. There could be a cantrip-like ability that gives you telepathy, but it wouldn't be automatic, it would require actions to maintain it, in my design.

And, if the Telepathy subclass gets at-will telepathy at range of 60 ft, when should they get the ability to compete with the Telepathy 8th level spell?

If a telepath gets at will telepathy at 60 feet, they should get the ability to compete with the telepath spell at a similar level. It would scale differently, though. It wouldn't extend world wide, probably, but you could have say a 10 mile radius of telepathy to multiple creatures at a time by using an ability to temporarily do so.

Other than a desire not to have spells at all, it seems like using spells as a baseline is an easier design route to work with.

Easier? Sure. Better? IMHO, not at all.
This is my design philosophy for psionics:

Psionic spells and other non-psionic class subclasses can use psionics, but it's a weakened, impure form of it. Wizards can replicate psionic abilities with certain spells, but they're not going to be as effective as a true Psion's abilities at their peak. If anyone's copying anyone else, Wizards are copying Psions in abilities, not the other way around. Psions have similar abilities visually, but they function very differently mechanically.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, "not all wizards". But you did make a claim that some wizards would, when in reality, it is "nearly zero wizards" because no spell requires monster parts to cast except for the three I listed. And from the PHB it was only Guards and Wards, a high level spell that almost no wizard would have access to (I believe it is a 5th level spell, so you need to be at least 9th level, and decide to have that spell, and then decide to go looking for Umber hulks yourself)

Disingenuous remarks don't become you. When this first came up, you(at least I think it was you) even referenced the DMG magic item creation rules which spoke about monster parts.

But yes, I was completely wrong because I said "all"

Yes. I agree.

So, we are wrong to say "all merchants" that is misrepresenting your point. But 1% of all merchants in the world teaching magic to their children will (within a few thousand years) create Eberron in every setting.

So, what, we can't say you claimed too many, because you can't claim too few? 1% is nothing. But that would be enough to create Eberron by the time the game starts?

That isn't even remotely what I said. Holy majorly twisted argument Batman! That response was only about what you said about societal impact, but then you knew that.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

How about telling people what you didn't say, tell us what you meant?
(Again, this is the internet, and you normally have to repeat yourself multiple times.)

 

[Maxperson]

How about telling people what you didn't say, tell us what you meant?
(Again, this is the internet, and you normally have to repeat yourself multiple times.)

I did. Since that was only his first time misrepresenting what I said there, I corrected him and very clearly told him that the response was only about societal impact. It wasn't an argument about 1% resulting in Eberron levels. Hell, it wasn't even about levels of spellcasters at all.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If the Psionokinetic would like to use telepathy, be a Kalashtar, Verdan, Ghostwise halfing, or other telepathic race, or multiclass to GOOlock. There could be a cantrip-like ability that gives you telepathy, but it wouldn't be automatic, it would require actions to maintain it, in my design.

If a telepath gets at will telepathy at 60 feet, they should get the ability to compete with the telepath spell at a similar level. It would scale differently, though. It wouldn't extend world wide, probably, but you could have say a 10 mile radius of telepathy to multiple creatures at a time by using an ability to temporarily do so.

Easier? Sure. Better? IMHO, not at all.
This is my design philosophy for psionics:

Psionic spells and other non-psionic class subclasses can use psionics, but it's a weakened, impure form of it. Wizards can replicate psionic abilities with certain spells, but they're not going to be as effective as a true Psion's abilities at their peak. If anyone's copying anyone else, Wizards are copying Psions in abilities, not the other way around. Psions have similar abilities visually, but they function very differently mechanically.

I understand the ideal, and I never said the other way was better. But the design team hasn't exactly been ambitious as of late with their choices.

And there is absolutely no reasons that a Psion should not be able to use Telekinesis and Telepathy, if it is meant to be the main class, even if they would specialize in only one of those uses.

I'm not sure I agree with essentially creating a fourth set of abilities though. You would have spells, racial abilities like you listed, the telepathy abilities of the subclass, then the telepathy abilities of the main class. That begins being quite a few levels of design for the same thematic ability (talk to someone's mind).

And to show where issues start arising:

A multiple person telepathy over a large radius though is exactly what the Telepathic Bond spell does, though it has an hour limit. The Telepathy spell is world-wide to a single person for a day and allows the transmission of sensations. Sending it a quick message anywhere in the multiverse to a single individual.

So, where does the Psion telepath fall along this curve. For most people, Telepathic bond is plenty powerful for what they want (eight people for an hour, no range limit) so if the psion is more powerful than that, where do we go? Give them an equivlaent to an 8th level spell by mid-levels?

I know you want Psions to be "better" at these things than Wizards, but what does that actually look like in practice if we aren't going to start with the spells as a baseline measure? And how do we keep balance if we essentially create "wizard with these spells but better and stronger"?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Disingenuous remarks don't become you. When this first came up, you(at least I think it was you) even referenced the DMG magic item creation rules which spoke about monster parts.

No I did not. In fact, I do not remember that appearing in this thread ever, except for you claiming that wizards would collect monster parts and find rare magical items, so of course "some" of them would travel to remote villages.

So, please try again. I am not being disingenuous at all.

Yes. I agree.

That isn't even remotely what I said. Holy majorly twisted argument Batman! That response was only about what you said about societal impact, but then you knew that.

I did. Since that was only his first time misrepresenting what I said there, I corrected him and very clearly told him that the response was only about societal impact. It wasn't an argument about 1% resulting in Eberron levels. Hell, it wasn't even about levels of spellcasters at all.

Your entire position has been that "if magic could be learned by anyone, merchants and nobles would pay for magic schooling because wizards would want to get paid for teaching, and that inevitably leads to the setting having Eberron-esque levels of magic by the time any we are at in the setting of the world." That is why we "need" the limiter like being born special.

So what is it Max? We are wrong to say you are talking about "all" of something, but you aren't saying 1% will change the social fabric and create Eberron. So what is it? When do all settings become Eberrron-esque in there broad magic? Do you have a number since you decided to start throwing out percentages? Somewhere between 95% and 5%? Or is it just "trust me, it would happen" and we are just supposed to take your word for it?

Because every argument against it, using logic we have available within the real world and our frame of reference, you have called invalid. So, give us your valid evidence.