D&D General Why Unbalanced Combat Encounters Can Enhance Your Dungeons & Dragons Experience

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
And this is the crux of the matter. You and likely everyone here are then not running naturalistic. You are putting in place safety guards against player character death that replaces balancing (while still relying on the same kind of thinking that "balancing" is based on). However while I suspect these safety guards might be so second nature to you that you hardly notice them, they are actually not that obvious to everyone.
As I stated in my very first post in the thread, the tool I use is telegraphing, which is employed for all challenges. Plus, we prepare for PCs getting in over their heads by having retreat/chase mechanics and are ready for PC death by having backup characters. As a result, I can be as "naturalistic" or as random or as "balanced" as I want.
 

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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Except that it does not do that--not consistently, anyway. I have personally had to deal with multiple situations where something punched well above its CR, not below. (Or, at least, I assume such; this was with new-ish DMs who were, as far as I could tell, using stock DMG monsters.)
Well I'm speaking from experience as a new DM (I started with 5e and LMoP) running stock monsters in stock adventures. Things worked just fine until about level 15 where I just threw the book away and just had them encounter things that looked cool.
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Well I'm speaking from experience as a new DM (I started with 5e and LMoP) running stock monsters in stock adventures. Things worked just fine until about level 15 where I just threw the book away and just had them encounter things that looked cool.
I had two separate groups deal with TPKs specifically because of this issue. Hence, why I consider the tools rather flawed.

Well I won't argue with WOTC being terrible
But WotC are the ones who created the CR system in the first place...? If their use of it is acceptable as a criticism, then why isn't the system itself worthy of criticism?
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I had two separate groups deal with TPKs specifically because of this issue. Hence, why I consider the tools rather flawed.


But WotC are the ones who created the CR system in the first place...? If their use of it is acceptable as a criticism, then why isn't the system itself worthy of criticism?
I think you meant misuse.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I think we may be defining "balanced" differently?

To me, balanced means that the characters, as they are, have a good chance of defeating the threat without any other needed resources. When I populate an adventure with balanced challenges, some will be a little easy, some a little hard, some just right. It's basically Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

When I put in "unbalanced" encounters, it means I'm making choices based not on what the characters can face, but what would be natural or interesting for the adventure. A Hill Giant boss in a den of goblin thieves for a 1st - 3rd Level adventure is an unbalanced encounter. A vampire lording over a starting town is an unbalanced encounter.

To me, as long as I communicate the level of threat, an unbalanced encounter unlocks a lot of interesting gameplay! In my experience, the players have to rely on a broader range of gameplay skills and narrative possibilities.

This goes the other way, too. A population of kobolds living in a Level 8-10 dungeon is an unbalanced encounter. The characters could easily wipe them out, but because kobolds would be so easy to defeat, it actually invites other gameplay possibilities. Should we take over the tribe? Trick them? Intimidate them? Or just Fireball?
I agree with you, but I suspect what @EzekielRaiden and others are trying to say is that, official WotC adventures aside, many if not most DMs do design their encounters with an eye toward what should actually be there, naturalistically.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Then expand that somewhat further. In 4e terms, it sounds to me like you're considering only fights with an XP budget between level-1 and level+1, perhaps +/- 2 if you're feeling generous. Believe it or not, the 4e DMG--again, the book for the edition everyone decries as "too balanced"--explicitly tells you not to do this. For example, in the section Table Rules, it has a couple of paragraphs (p ) about "Metagame Thinking" (all emphasis in original):

Or these two paragraphs on page 30 (in the "Running the Game" chapter.) The first is part of a longer section about Character Death, and the second is part of the Fixing Your Mistakes section. All emphasis in original.

Or this section (p 56-57) from "Encounter Components," all emphasis in original.

...and here's the reference for page 104, which goes into much greater detail:


Notice, the description even allows for monsters more than eight levels above the party's level. It doesn't say, "never ever do this." It says, "Do this with care. The characters are very likely to die. The players should probably know what they're getting into, and have a clear shot at escape." So...do you believe 4e is a "balanced" game? If you do, then how can "balance" mean exclusively the "tiresome grind" that the book explicitly tells you not to use? The subsequent text basically says, "Make 10%-20% of your encounters Easy, 10%-20% of your encounters Hard, and the remaining 60%-80% Standard." A standard encounter is a solid challenge; if the party rolls very well and their enemies roll poorly, it might become a cakewalk, while if the reverse happens they may need to beat a hasty retreat. (I have done this multiple times in 4e play.) In 5e terms, "Hard" difficulty is probably closest to 4e "Standard," and "Deadly" is closest to 4e "Hard."


So, consider just calling it a "hard" encounter, without using the word "balance" in any form. What do you lose by changing that term? Do the descriptions I quoted above not permit for an encounter of this kind, even though 4e is the allegedly excessive "balance" edition?


Which is what the paragraphs above explicitly say, repeatedly. Mix up your encounters. Provide variation. Don't fall into a "stale" rhythm. Provide encounters where the party fights the same monster statblock, but seven levels later--so they can see how much they've grown. Throw unwinnable fights at them, if they know those fights are unwinnable or at least have a chance to survive if they're quick or clever or charismatic. Etc.


Again: Is any of that incompatible with the descriptions quoted above? (Do note, some of those solutions would involve re-factoring the challenge in a different way, e.g. if the party chooses to take over, trick, or intimidate the warren, that likely would be an impromptu skill challenge, with the DM making judgment calls about the difficulty of such a task.)

Because people talk a really big game about how 4e is this horrible, draconian nightmare of a system where you are forced to make everything in near-perfect lock-step with the characters. And then when you actually dig into their claims and show them the game text, every single thing they talk about is right there, explicit in the text, without need for interpretation.

So: Are the encounters you're talking about unbalanced? Or are they simply ones where you, the DM, know that they can't be solved by brute force? (or, in the case of the kobolds, that they could be trivially solved by brute force, but maybe the PCs are powerful enough now to find other, more interesting solutions.)
Why are you speaking so defensively about 4e here? Have their been any explicit "digs" about the system in this thread?
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
I had two separate groups deal with TPKs specifically because of this issue. Hence, why I consider the tools rather flawed.
Sure, but you were on the receiving end right? So who knows what might have been happening on the other side of the screen? Most of the discussion of 5e on this forum since I've been a member has been how hard it is to kill PCs. So I don't think your experience is the norm.
But WotC are the ones who created the CR system in the first place...? If their use of it is acceptable as a criticism, then why isn't the system itself worthy of criticism?
Despite their best efforts, not everything WOTC has done is terrible. :)
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Well I won't argue with WOTC being terrible :)

But WotC are the ones who created the CR system in the first place...? If their use of it is acceptable as a criticism, then why isn't the system itself worthy of criticism?

Well the issue isn't the CR system.

The issue is WOTC designers more or less ignored the CR system guidelines, created monster freeformed, eyeballed the CR of the freeform monsters in the whole MM.

So WOTC designers gauged l Monster Manual wrong. Therefore a lot of monsters cooulf not be telegraphed correctly. So if a bunch of professional designers can't eyeball it right, what make us think new DMs and adventure designers can?
 

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