Why was "knock back" never a combat maneuver in the game?

[harpy]

You know the move, you've seen it in countless movies where someone delivers an awesome punch, backhand, what have you... and the guy that gets hit gets thrown back and lands on their back, or crashes into a wall and slumps down.

Why was this never part of the basic design of 3rd edition? They added in several other combat maneuvers. Bull Rush does the shoving, Overrun or Trip can make people prone, but why wasn't this well known trope part of the core dynamic of the game?

Sure, we've had feats and monsters over the years that sprinkle this effect in, and I'm sure with the copious amounts of powers in 4E that some kind of effect like this is present now, but I'm just scratching my head why there wasn't something to the effect of:

You hit target hard, they fly back 1+ squares and are prone.

It wouldn't be an easy thing to do, and Pathfinder might not have been able to handle it with their streamlined system, but in the world of sub-systems that was 3.0/3.5 it just seems like this ought to have been baked into the system.

 

[TerraDave]

Its a supers move, and D&D is not a supers game?

You have got to leave champions with something.

 

[ScorpiusRisk]

Well you guessed right. It's all over 4th edition.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Special Manoeuvres: A character can also attempt a special manoeuvre. Examples of special manoeuvres include tripping, disarming, bull rushing, and grappling an opponent, or attempting to sunder his weapon. The GM is allowed to make special rulings on any manoeuvre based upon circumstances. Note also that characters are allowed to have ranks in manoeuvres in the same way that they can have ranks in weapon skills. Manoeuvres are described as Minor, Normal, and Major.

o Minor Manoeuvres: These manoeuvres cause a –2 penalty to some aspect of the defender’s Actions until cleared. They may target the defender’s speed, Armour Class, attack rolls, damage, or something similar.

Manoeuvres that target speed cause a 5-foot reduction in speed for each – 1 penalty the manoeuvre would cause.

The penalty requires an Action to clear.

Performing a minor manoeuvre costs the attacker 4 weapon skill ranks for that attack. This penalty can be reduced to 2 if the attack does no damage, and is performed with a weapon that normally deals damage.

Examples of minor manoeuvres include:

A cut that bleeds into an attacker’s eyes, causing a –2 penalty to attack rolls.


A blow pushes an armour plate out of place, causing a –2 penalty to Armour Class.


A numbing blow to one leg, reducing speed by 10 feet.​

o Normal Manoeuvres: These manoeuvres either cause a –4 penalty to some aspect of the defender’s Actions until cleared with an Action, or cause some special effect such as disarmament, forcing the character to move up to 10 feet, tripping the opponent, and so on.

Performing a normal manoeuvre that causes a –4 penalty costs the attacker 8 ranks of weapon skill for that attack. This penalty can be reduced to 4 if the attack does no damage, and is performed with a weapon that normally deals damage.

Performing a normal manoeuvre that causes a special effect costs the attacker 4 ranks of weapon skill for that attack. The attack roll result sets the DC for the defender to resist. Resistance is a reAction, and may use any save or skill that the defender desires, subject to narrative constraints. Thus, for example, an attempted bull rush may be sidestepped (Reflexes save) or stopped (Prowess save) – whichever is better for the defender. The special effect occurs instead of, rather than in addition to, normal damage.

o Major Manoeuvres: These manoeuvres absolutely prevent an Action until cleared, and cannot be cleared automatically. The attack roll sets the DC to clear the condition. The defender can attempt to avoid the condition when the attack is made, as a Reaction. Thereafter, the defender can spend Actions to gain additional attempts to clear the condition at a cost of 1 Action per attempt.

Performing a major manoeuvre costs 8 ranks of weapon skill. If the character wants to cause damage in addition to the special effect, the manoeuvre costs 12 ranks.

Major manoeuvres include:

Pinning a weapon so that attack is impossible.


Thrusting a bone into a monster’s mouth so that it cannot bite.


Leaping onto the back of a lion, to get out of range of its claws.


Grappling and holding an opponent so that he cannot move.​

The general rule for special manoeuvres is: Let the characters attempt them, and don’t worry if they change the way an encounter works. That is much of the fun of doing unusual things in combat! Game Masters are encouraged to use the rules herein to allow PCs and NPCs alike a free hand in deciding what any given combat looks and feels like.

This might allow what you are looking for, is OGC, and should easily adapt to other systems, including Pathfinder.


RC

 

[DaveyJones]

i haven't played this edition for almost 2 years. but i'm pretty sure they had it as a magic item tack on too.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Is the OP just feigning ignorance? Knock Back, literally called EXACTLY THAT, is a feat in 3E. It's in Races of Stone, you need to be size large or have powerful build to get it, but it's totally there. You could just do a feat search on wotc, assuming they still have that functionality for 3e, and it should come up.

EDIT: And of course, right in core there was Awesome Blow. Go ahead, click the link. Despite the name, I promise it's nothing pornographic.

EDIT^2: Of course, there are then the literal "maneuvers" of Tome of Battle, where as early as ECL 1, any size character can learn a Stone Dragon maneuver hit someone and send them flying.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It is possible that the OP doesn't have Races of Stone, or doesn't have all the possible feats memorized (a daunting task, esp. if 3pp are included). It is also possible that the OP is referring to a combat manouvre that can be attempted by anyone, which a feat might improve (ala Bull Rush) rather than a feat.

Also, Bruce Lee was not size Large!

 

[Scribble]

Also, Bruce Lee was not size Large!

Correct... He was size: Larger Then Life!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It is possible that the OP doesn't have Races of Stone, or doesn't have all the possible feats memorized (a daunting task, esp. if 3pp are included). It is also possible that the OP is referring to a combat manouvre that can be attempted by anyone, which a feat might improve (ala Bull Rush) rather than a feat.

Also, Bruce Lee was not size Large!

Well, it isn't something so common that they felt the need to put it in core...except that they did anyway, as a monster feat. And the designers in general apparently thought it was an ability that one would need considerable size to perform, probably because they were trying to maintain some sort of "realism." Even then, there were things like Charging Minotaur maneuver. Sorry if the OP only has the core books, but realy, as someone who enjoys martial arts films, I still think it's not that important a mechanic to include with the core rules.

But that's aside from this point: The rules are there for making such a character, even if you were limited by access only to awesome blow, you could use that as a measuring stick for a houseruled feat that allowed a medium creature to knock foes back, so you could compare them and make the houseruled feat slightly weaker in exchange for the (much) wider access it affords.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I would use a Major Manoeuvre costing 12 ranks in RCFG, indicating that damage is done, the character is knocked prone, and must make some form of check to rise again. This models the groggy target as portrayed in action movies very well, IMHO.

In RCFG, weapon skill ranks determine (among other things) your attack bonus, but you can't go below 0. At 0, you take a -4 penalty.

Thus, it would require some work (levels) to get past the -4 penalty for attempting this sort of action within the game, but there would never actually be a -12 to hit.

Outside of RCFG, use BAB for weapon ranks. The manoeuvre thus reduces BAB by 12, to a minimum of 0, at which a -4 attack penalty is applied. In 3e and 4e games, feats can be devised that increase your BAB (or decrease your penalty) relative to a manoeuvre.

This is an amazingly robust system (IMnsHO) and should serve you well.


RC