Why we like plot: Our Job as DMs

[Raven Crowking]

I don't believe children set out with any goal in mind when playing Cowboys & Indians. You wouldn't tell a 6-year-old to go write a book or audition for a play instead of collaboratively creating a story about Cops & Robbers. These look to me like games without meaningful victory conditions, measures of success, or even rules. The sole intent is to pretend to be someone you are not.

I would classify these as play, but not as games.


RC

 

[maddman75]

I would classify these as play, but not as games.


RC

Agreed. They are roleplay, but as they lack rules are not games. They could be turned into RPGs very simply, by having some basic rule like 'we play rock paper scissors and winner says if you get shot or not'. Or guessing a number, or taking turns declaring outcomes.

Though that adds another factor to RPG definition - actions are not played out, but described. Unless you're LARPing, but even those who play those recognize them as being different.

 

[pawsplay]

Agreed. They are roleplay, but as they lack rules are not games. They could be turned into RPGs very simply, by having some basic rule like 'we play rock paper scissors and winner says if you get shot or not'. Or guessing a number, or taking turns declaring outcomes.

Though that adds another factor to RPG definition - actions are not played out, but described. Unless you're LARPing, but even those who play those recognize them as being different.

Even in a LARP, play consists of the imaginary actions, not the literal ones. If I walk over and say "Hi," I am representing my character doing it.

 

[maddman75]

Even in a LARP, play consists of the imaginary actions, not the literal ones. If I walk over and say "Hi," I am representing my character doing it.

Same with cowboys and indians, or cops and robbers. You didn't need handcuffs to arrest someone, or even toy bows and arrows if you didn't have them.

 

[Theroc]

Even in a LARP, play consists of the imaginary actions, not the literal ones. If I walk over and say "Hi," I am representing my character doing it.

This is somewhat offtopic, I believe, but I am not quite certain I understand how LARP works.

For example: How does one regulate success and failure? Does it use rules such as D&D, and the players simply represent the 'minis' that one would normally use? Does the player's physical actions have impact on their 'mechanical' actions?

I've never seen any LARP and the like so I am entirely ignorant of how it 'really' works.

 

[pawsplay]

This is somewhat offtopic, I believe, but I am not quite certain I understand how LARP works.

For example: How does one regulate success and failure? Does it use rules such as D&D, and the players simply represent the 'minis' that one would normally use? Does the player's physical actions have impact on their 'mechanical' actions?

I've never seen any LARP and the like so I am entirely ignorant of how it 'really' works.

That really depends on the LARP. Many LARPs use rock-paper-scissors for contests, with superior stats granting a number of mulligans. On the other hand, something like NERO or Amtgard uses foam-padded or latex boffer weapons. Similarly, I've seen lockpicking handled every way from letting something with Lockpicking pick a lock to handing out poker chips to "spend" on lockpicking attempts to a coathanger rigged with an electric buzzer you have to get a wire ring around without touching.

 

[Theroc]

That really depends on the LARP. Many LARPs use rock-paper-scissors for contests, with superior stats granting a number of mulligans. On the other hand, something like NERO or Amtgard uses foam-padded or latex boffer weapons. Similarly, I've seen lockpicking handled every way from letting something with Lockpicking pick a lock to handing out poker chips to "spend" on lockpicking attempts to a coathanger rigged with an electric buzzer you have to get a wire ring around without touching.

Emphasis mine. If I as a person am trained/taught swordfighting techniques, how would this affect a LARP that adjudicates anything through 'boffing'? Example: Say I'm fighting someone who is statistically better than I am, but I'm actually the better swordsman. Am I supposed to hold back or is there some other method for levelling that playing field?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Emphasis mine. If I as a person am trained/taught swordfighting techniques, how would this affect a LARP that adjudicates anything through 'boffing'? Example: Say I'm fighting someone who is statistically better than I am, but I'm actually the better swordsman. Am I supposed to hold back or is there some other method for levelling that playing field?

I know in a system I played, Havok, you were expected to practice in your spare time and just try to get better if you wanted to play a great swordsman. Of course, you were allowed to spend character points on sword technique and do more damage with your weapon. So, other people might have more skill but if you put enough points in your fighting stats, you could take them out in one lucky hit.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I would classify these as play, but not as games.

So we're limiting this discussion to a tighter definition of games?

1. an amusement or pastime: children's games.
2. the material or equipment used in playing certain games: a store selling toys and games.
3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.

In particular the third definition? There's been a lot of discussion about choosing one's own definition.

Agreed. They are roleplay, but as they lack rules are not games. They could be turned into RPGs very simply, by having some basic rule like 'we play rock paper scissors and winner says if you get shot or not'. Or guessing a number, or taking turns declaring outcomes.

Ah, but couldn't that resolution be solved the same way it was in Cops & Robbers? Mutual agreement. Sure, it usually came with some argument when we were children, but a mature game could lead to a much more reasonable conclusion to a conflict. Why does the element of chance need to be introduced to make it a game? Would you say that social encounters in 1E and earlier versions of D&D were not games becasue the resolution of that scene wasn't determined by a skill check?

I haven't seen an actual game that takes rules completely out of the picture, but I could imagine one that people might enjoy. Games currently published that I think come closest to this type of play are Prime Time Adventures and Hero's Banner. I'm not completely familiar with either game, but second and third hand accounts put both of these games in the narrative sector. And I've found that exploring these 'narrative control' games for their ideas has given me some good options for the way I approach D&D.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So we're limiting this discussion to a tighter definition of games?

No. We are (or I am) limiting this discussion to the appropriate definition of game out of the possible definitions.

wind1  /n. wɪnd, Literary waɪnd; v. wɪnd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [n. wind, Literary wahynd; v. wind] Show IPA
Use wind in a Sentence
See web results for wind
See images of wind
–noun 1. air in natural motion, as that moving horizontally at any velocity along the earth's surface: A gentle wind blew through the valley. High winds were forecast.
2. a gale; storm; hurricane.
3. any stream of air, as that produced by a bellows or fan.
4. air that is blown or forced to produce a musical sound in singing or playing an instrument.
5. wind instrument.
6. wind instruments collectively.
7. the winds, the members of an orchestra or band who play the wind instruments.
8. breath or breathing: to catch one's wind.
9. the power of breathing freely, as during continued exertion.
10. any influential force or trend: strong winds of public opinion.
11. a hint or intimation: to catch wind of a stock split.
12. air carrying an animal's odor or scent.
13. solar wind.
14. empty talk; mere words.
15. vanity; conceitedness.
16. gas generated in the stomach and intestines.
17. Boxing Slang. the pit of the stomach where a blow may cause a temporary shortness of breath; solar plexus.
18. any direction of the compass.
19. a state of unconcern, recklessness, or abandon: to throw all caution to the winds.

–verb (used with object) 20. to expose to wind or air.
21. to follow by the scent.
22. to make short of wind or breath, as by vigorous exercise.
23. to let recover breath, as by resting after exertion.

–verb (used without object) 24. to catch the scent or odor of game.

—Idioms25. between wind and water, a. (of a ship) at or near the water line.
b. in a vulnerable or precarious spot: In her profession one is always between wind and water.

26. break wind, to expel gas from the stomach and bowels through the anus.
27. how the wind blows or lies, what the tendency or probability is: Try to find out how the wind blows. Also, which way the wind blows.
28. in the teeth of the wind, sailing directly into the wind; against the wind. Also, in the eye of the wind, in the wind's eye.
29. in the wind, about to occur; imminent; impending: There's good news in the wind.
30. off the wind, a. away from the wind; with the wind at one's back.
b. (of a sailing vessel) headed into the wind with sails shaking or aback.

31. on the wind, as close as possible to the wind. Also, on a wind.
32. sail close to the wind, a. Also, sail close on a wind. to sail as nearly as possible in the direction from which the wind is blowing.
b. to practice economy in the management of one's affairs.
c. to verge on a breach of propriety or decency.
d. to escape (punishment, detection, etc.) by a narrow margin; take a risk.

33. take the wind out of one's sails, to surprise someone, esp. with unpleasant news; stun; shock; flabbergast: She took the wind out of his sails when she announced she was marrying someone else.

So, when I say that there is a lot of wind blowing outside, how dare I exclude all of those other possible definitions! When I say that D&D is a game, how dare I not also consider it quarry for hunting!

A word can have multiple definitions. That does not make those definitions coequal, nor appropriate to all discussion, nor does it mean that those definitions are referring to the same thing.

I can bear to have a discussion about a bear, but I'd be an idiot to assume that both "bear"s mean the same, simply because the word "bear" is given more than one meaning.

EDIT: To be clear, if you want to claim that Hussar's (thus far unsupported by an actual ruleset) "game" in which the end is known, and in which the activity has nothing to do with the outcome of the goals, is "an amusement or pastime" (as in "children's games") I will certainly agree. I believe I have said it was an amusement or pastime already. But it is not a game in the sense that Monopoly, RCFG, or D&D are games: "a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators."




RC