Why won't WOtC let another company publish...

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Doesn't history suggest that Dark Sun and Planescape don't sell as well as Ravenloft?

And if Dark Sun is old school sword & sorcery, TSR sure kept that a secret from the public. If it'd been marketed that way, I think it would have had a lot wider audience. But I'm not sure that sand & sandals is quite the same thing as swords & sorcery.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

No, I don't think Ravenloft is a good example of settings not having enough sales to be attractive. That line shot itself in the foot at every turn. I can't think of one thing they did right with it.

Changing the default assumption to the characters being Ravenloft natives instead of trapped tourists is a big thing they did right, IMO.

 

[Imaro]

Doesn't history suggest that Dark Sun and Planescape don't sell as well as Ravenloft?

And if Dark Sun is old school sword & sorcery, TSR sure kept that a secret from the public. If it'd been marketed that way, I think it would have had a lot wider audience. But I'm not sure that sand & sandals is quite the same thing as swords & sorcery.

Actually its not just "sand and sandals", let's not forget that this was during the time that while alot of the designers were gamers and had real love for it...The head honchos ie marketing etc. didn't. They probably wouldn't have known sword and sorcery if it pimp smacked em across the face.

DarK Sun(some things that make it more S&S than high fantasy)


a.) Survival and money are the driving goals of most characters, not epic LotR type quests.

Dark Sun definitely had this


b.) Corrupt Civilization.

Yep. What little civilization there was is ruled by decadent fake-gods, condones slavery, backstabbing, gladitorial combats, secret cults etc.



c.)Vast tracks of unexplored savage wilderness

Check. Barbarian(not to mention savage halflings way before Eberron) tribes, mutant animals, slave raiders, ex slave villages



d.) Magic is something feared and dangerous

ChecK. Sorcerer kings, Defilers, magic-created wastelands



e.) Strange and alien non-tolkien races

Half-Check(It was still D&D but even the standard races were twisted in new ways) Thri-kreen, Muls, Aarockra(think that's how you spell it), and my personal favorite, though not a PC race, the freakin Belgoi(they rock in a creepy way, those bells were just cool)

 

[Ranger REG]

The one thing I hated about the WW Ravenloft was it's complete lack of setting cross-over. They were not allowed to mention anything from any of the other D&D settings nor continue the trend of involving outsiders from those published realms.

Yet Ravenloft was founded upon the mysterious Mists nabbing people from other cosmologies/Material Planes/multiverse whatever and abandoning them in the Demiplane of Dread. Heck, Strahd himself came from some unknown world! How do you wipe away it's foundations just like that!?

The problem with such crossover is that you're dealing with other IP brands. Just because it seeps into the Ravenloft IP (like Lord Soth) doesn't necessarily mean you have use of the other brand (like Dragonlance).

In this case, a boundary needs to be set to avoid possible breach. IOW, Ravenloft has to be its own independent setting.

 

[Ranger REG]

Doesn't history suggest that Dark Sun and Planescape don't sell as well as Ravenloft?

*Shrugs*

I dunno. I'm not a fan of either one, not as much as Ravenloft. Did my lack of purchasing products of those two lines contributed to their non-continuance?*


*If I did that then ... cool.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

c.)Vast tracks of unexplored savage wilderness

Small note: tracts. I know it's probably always sounded like "tracks" because no-one pronounces the T, but there you go.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Actually its not just "sand and sandals", let's not forget that this was during the time that while alot of the designers were gamers and had real love for it...

So what? There are bands you've never heard of and have no fondness for that musicians love. There are movies you find unwatchable that directors you adore think are great. A designer liking a setting in no way implies that it will appeal to the general public.

The head honchos ie marketing etc. didn't. They probably wouldn't have known sword and sorcery if it pimp smacked em across the face.

Yes, because no one working in fantasy gaming -- and publishing modules featuring them -- had heard of Conan or Red Sonja.

DarK Sun(some things that make it more S&S than high fantasy)

That wasn't the assertion. Something can be more one thing than another without being that thing. A beagle is a bigger dog than a dachsund but that doesn't make it a German shepherd.

Are you asserting that Dark Sun is swords & sorcery? Because otherwise, TSR's marketing didn't fail by not marketing it as such.

 

[Imaro]

So what? There are bands you've never heard of and have no fondness for that musicians love. There are movies you find unwatchable that directors you adore think are great. A designer liking a setting in no way implies that it will appeal to the general public.

What??? You sir, are putting words in my mouth. Never said anything about a designer liking a setting makes it an automatic hit.

Yes, because no one working in fantasy gaming -- and publishing modules featuring them -- had heard of Conan or Red Sonja.

That doesn't mean they know what swords and sorcery is. They know Conan and Red Sonja are S&S but that doesn't mean they know what S&S is.

It's like saying well if you know a duck has a bill and webbed feet you know what a duck is.
So then a platypus is a duck?

Second I'm not talking about everyone in the rpg business. I'm talking about TSR.

That wasn't the assertion. Something can be more one thing than another without being that thing. A beagle is a bigger dog than a dachsund but that doesn't make it a German shepherd.

No it makes it a dog. We are talking about a broad (and not necessarily totally defined) category. I think the is it a dog or feline or marsupial fits better as an analogy. Is it adventure S&S(Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser), is it Dark S&S(Elric), is it space fantasy S&S(Kane of Mars)...These more appropriately fit your analogy. All of them are considered S&S but have differences as well.

Are you asserting that Dark Sun is swords & sorcery? Because otherwise, TSR's marketing didn't fail by not marketing it as such.

Yes I am, talking in the general sense, which is all you can really do for most genres. S&S has certain universal elements that Dark Sun shared as well. Universal being what the majority of people who have read S&S agree upon as its tropes and give it its flavor. For some refrence check out the supplement for the Sorcerer rpg called Sorcerer and Sword, the author breaks it down pretty well.