Why would a dragon NOT take Antimagic field?

[NewJeffCT]

One problem people have with running high level 3.5E games is that they still try to run "combat as sport" where they pit a "team" of monsters against the PCs and expect a "fair" battle between them without any outside influence just like in a sporting event.
But high level 3.5E is much more suitable for "combat as war" were each team, instead on meeting on a neutral ground for fair combat, tries to stack the fight in their favor before it even starts so that the combat itself is just a formality.

And when you run the monsters as "combat as sport" team while the players play "combat as war" then it is no wonder that they will easily mop the floor with everything you throw at them.

Having big swings back & forth in terms of fairness/surprise/advantageous ground, etc can be fun. However, if you try to stack the odds against the PCs too often this way, they're going to feel like you're screwing them over. I rarely had problems challenging high level PCs in 3.5e, it's just that it took a lot of work to do it,and the combats were interminably long.

 

[Dark Dragon]

One problem people have with running high level 3.5E games is that they still try to run "combat as sport" where they pit a "team" of monsters against the PCs and expect a "fair" battle between them without any outside influence just like in a sporting event.
But high level 3.5E is much more suitable for "combat as war" were each team, instead on meeting on a neutral ground for fair combat, tries to stack the fight in their favor before it even starts so that the combat itself is just a formality.

And when you run the monsters as "combat as sport" team while the players play "combat as war" then it is no wonder that they will easily mop the floor with everything you throw at them.

Well, sometimes I DM the foes in order to "train" the players for a particular encounter which may (or may not) take place later in the campaign but with different monsters using a similar tactical approach. If the players remember their training, it will help them to overcome that challenge in a better way. If not, they may complain, but only until I remind them of that "training".

So far, the players know that I expect that they use their PCs as efficient as possible, i.e., it is more a "combat as war" encounter style of play. Works not always, but sufficiently often. However, the players mostly don't know if it is "combat as sport" or not. Last session saw more the former, when the pseudodragon familiars of the PCs could shine and take out the outer guard perimeter of the cultists without an alarm to be sound. When the little dragons tried to proceeded to the inner perimeter, they were outmatched, hence the PCs stepped in and slaughtered the remaining guards.

Like I said, maybe because the dragon doesn't have it. Then again, maybe it does. I like to theme spells when picking things for Sorcerer-style characters, so if it fits (it also has Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, etc)., I'd take it. If not, then I'd pass.

That's the way I do it as well for most dragons: they are tied to a theme and/or strategy. The red dragon of the coming battle is going after the rule "Safety first": he knows his weaknesses (and that foes will try to target them) and invested a lot of time to find ways to suppress/remove them. He does not want to loose a fight due to poor defenses. So his spell selection focuses on abjuration (alarm, resist energy, protection from energy, dispel magic, stoneskin), illusion (mirror image, invisibility, greater invisibility), and some healing spells.

His offensive spells won't be that much, but some unusual spells out of the splat books will be among them (haven't completed the list yet). The dragon relies on his physical prowess and favors physical combat over arcane duels. Of course, the dragon won't fight fair. He will single out or focus on one foe until that foe is no threat anymore (=dead, or teleported away). He will use any means and battle field settings to his advantage, and does not care much about his allies. As a dragon, he wants his share of the treasure (=100%), because he knows that the cultists need his help, not vice versa.

 

[JamesonCourage]

That's the way I do it as well for most dragons: they are tied to a theme and/or strategy. The red dragon of the coming battle is going after the rule "Safety first": he knows his weaknesses (and that foes will try to target them) and invested a lot of time to find ways to suppress/remove them. He does not want to loose a fight due to poor defenses. So his spell selection focuses on abjuration (alarm, resist energy, protection from energy, dispel magic, stoneskin), illusion (mirror image, invisibility, greater invisibility), and some healing spells.

His offensive spells won't be that much, but some unusual spells out of the splat books will be among them (haven't completed the list yet). The dragon relies on his physical prowess and favors physical combat over arcane duels. Of course, the dragon won't fight fair. He will single out or focus on one foe until that foe is no threat anymore (=dead, or teleported away). He will use any means and battle field settings to his advantage, and does not care much about his allies. As a dragon, he wants his share of the treasure (=100%), because he knows that the cultists need his help, not vice versa.

From the sounds of it, Antimagic Field is right up his alley, then

 

[Dark Dragon]

The dragon is ready for battle... Its spell selection is mostly based on defensive and emergency exit spells. The few offensive spells don't deal energy damage, but weaken or slow the foes instead.

Sjachixen (very old gargantuan red dragon [fire], CR 21, 751 years), "Fire Shadow"

Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy)
Senses: darkvision 120 ft, low-light vision x4, listen +30, spot +30
Languages: common, draconic

HD: 31d12, 450 hp
AC: 42, touch 9, flat-footed 42 (-4 size, +30 natural, +3 deflection, +3 armor)
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +17, Will +25
Immunities: sleep, paralysis, fire
Resistances: DR 15/magic, SR 26

BAB +31, grapple +56, trip +25 vs. +29
Full Attack:
1x Bite +40 (4d6+13, 20/x2), 20 ft.
2x Claw +38 (2d8+6, 20/x4), 15 ft.
2x Wing +38 (2d6+6, 20/x2), 15 ft.
1x Tail Slap +38 (2d8+19, 20/x2), 15 ft.
or: Tail Sweep, DC 33, 2d6+19 (only max. small creatures)
or: Crush, DC 33, 4d6+19 (max. medium creatures)
or: Breath Weapon, DC 33, 60 ft. cone of fire (18d10, recharge time 1d4-1 rds)

Abilities: STR 37, DEX 10, CON 27, INT 22, WIS 23, CHA 22

Feats: Multiattack, Flyby Attack, Snatch, Hover, Wingover, Power Attack, Iron Will, Suppress Weakness, Overcome Weakness, Recover Breath, Silent Spell

Skills: Appraise +11, Bluff +18, Concentration +42, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (geography) +11, Knowledge (nature) +11, Listen +30, Move Silently +25, Search +30, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +30, Spot +30, Survival +21, Use Magic Device +28

Special Qualities: no cold weakness, blindsense 60 ft.

Spell-like Abilities: 9/day - Locate Object, 3/day - Suggestion

Spells known (CL 13):
0: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance
1: Alarm, Disguise Self, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield
2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Silence
3: Blinding Breath, Dispel Magic, Haste, Protection from Energy
4: Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin
5: Cloudkill, Righteous Might, Transmute Rock to Mud
6: Antimagic Field, Word of Recall

Used equipment: Ring of Protection +3, Bracers of Armor +3, Claws of the Ripper, Amulet of Proof against Detection


Plan:
The dragon has placed three alarm spells (mental alarm) in the cavern that the PCs will pass through. The cavern was used by the cultists' orc guards before (until they got killed), and the dragon has hidden a few coins at some sleeping places of the orcs. The PCs haven't searched the area yet, and they do not stay there when the cultists and the dragon set up their ambush.

When the first alarm goes off, the dragon knows where the PCs are, and he will start to cast his long-term defensive spells: Resist Energy (acid), Protection from Energy (cold), Stoneskin (in that order). When the second alarm goes off, he casts See Invisibility and Disguise Self. When the final alarm goes off, he casts Shield and Invisibility.
The cultists get the information about the triggered alarms by signs. They have Darkvision activated since nightfall and will hide behind an Illusory Wall above and to the side of the cavern.

As soon as the PCs leave the cavern at night, the dragon will cast a silenced Greater Invisibility. The PCs will see a dark landscape weakly illuminated in red from the fire in the volcanic crater, and ash is falling out of clouds lingering low in the sky. The erupting volcano is making a lot of noise: hissing sounds, explosions, rocks cracking. The ground is trembling slightly. Overall, it is a very dark, eerie scenery.

Once the party is in the open area and the cultists' remaining guards start their ambush using bows, the dragon casts Evard's Black Tentacles to hinder a possible retreat of the PCs. The cultists get ready to interfere with spells cast by the PCs. Because it is a surprise round, the evil guys only have standard actions. The cultists don't attack because their part in the ambush is to block all exit spells of the PCs. They can't fulfill this task if they get detected early and are forced into a spell duel (which they won't survive for more than 1 or 2 rounds).

In the first regular combat round, the dragon will cast Blinding Breath and dive-fly-by-attack the group with his breath weapon. This will do about 100 damage at a decent DC, half of the group will likely make their save (the two brass dragons will ignore the fire, but they are seemingly no big threat ), while the others will now be burned and blind. I assume that the party is protected by Resist Energy (fire), and the damage will be 70 (or 20 if saved) instead. Not that much for level 25 guys, but the blindness is nasty and the dragon is still invisible. The bowmen will fire as long as possible, their arrows are non-magical, thus they are not afraid of hurting the dragon (but the dragon will not take care of their healthy anyway).

Depending on the PCs actions, the cultists' cleric will disrupt the first PC exit spell by casting Silence, while the necromancer and the wizard readies to cast a Dimensional Anchor if any susbsequent teleportation spell is cast. The dragon will cast a Ray of Enfeeblement on the strongest-looking PC and then position himself for melee combat against the party wizard or cleric (depending on their actions and if not blinded, he'll ignore weak and/or blinded PCs if possible). If his breath weapon was not as successful as expected, the dragon will cast AMF instead of RoE and position himself close to the wiz or the clr...

From then on, it is difficult to foretell how everything develops.
The cavern will collapse due to the eruption during round 2, and spit forth smoke, ash and some lava bombs in the process.

I decided not to go straight with tha AMF but use it as a back-up if the PCs think that they can handle the situation all too easy (or if they were too lucky with their saves).

Two things add a chaotic element to the battle:
1) The artefact that is in the possession of the cleric (or the cleric is possessed of the artefact ). It will work even in an AMF, and could force the dragon to retreat ASAP (or be dead).
2) The mnk/ftr/drd is infected by lycanthropy (totally forgot that), and it is now her "first" full moon... I intend to play it out a bit similar as in that Van Helsing movie, where the werewolf was in wolf form only when in moonlight. The PC will change shape when the moon is visible between the clouds, and this would happen at the right moment.


Comments or alternative strategies are welcome!
The Encounter EL&XP calculator 4.01 lists that as a trivial challenge. However, I increased the dragon's CR from 21 to 25 because of his extensive preparation and AMF option, which makes it a challenge (EL 27 would mean very difficult).

 

[Derren]

Decide beforehand if the blinding effect from Blinding Breath is magical in nature (and thus goes away in the AMF) or not (which means there is no way to cure it inside an AMF). If it is the latter the dragon should, if he manages to blind many/most of them, instantly cast AMF and take out the cleric (who was hopefully prevented from healing himself by the wizards).
Also, don't forget the dragons crush ability. If the PCs don't scatter the dragon with AMF can simply crush them to death.

Of course that only applies if you run a real combat instead of holding back to make sure that the PCs win.

 

[GaimMastr]

Eh, I think it's fair if you rule that dragons cannot fly without magic. So the dragon is ground-bound.

And clearly dragons have magic weapons, so impose a -5 penalty to its attack and damage rolls, its AC, and its saves.

Basically, no, antimagic is dumb. The dragon casts the spell and then dies because its heart bursts into flame since its innate fire resistance is gone. The creature combusts from within and serves as an object lesson of why dragons shouldn't try to cheat. They're already G**D*** dragons!

A Dragons Immunities are considered "Extraordinary" and as such would function even inside an anti-magic field.

When considering any dragon against a party of PC's it is of utmost importance that you NOT pay direct attention to the CR as a guiding force for choosing it. Rather you should look at it's abilities vs. the parties as your measurement. I play with a group of min-maxers quite often and know what to look for when it comes to adjudicating contradictions. This happened to be one of our main topics at one point or another.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Decide beforehand if the blinding effect from Blinding Breath is magical in nature (and thus goes away in the AMF) or not (which means there is no way to cure it inside an AMF). If it is the latter the dragon should, if he manages to blind many/most of them, instantly cast AMF and take out the cleric (who was hopefully prevented from healing himself by the wizards).
Also, don't forget the dragons crush ability. If the PCs don't scatter the dragon with AMF can simply crush them to death.

Of course that only applies if you run a real combat instead of holding back to make sure that the PCs win.

The blindness ist caused by the dragon's breath weapon. The damage done is instantaneous including the blindness because the spell is part of the breath weapon. Therefore it cannot be suppressed in an AMF, i.e., a creature hurt by the breath weapon is not somehow "healed" of lost hp when entering an AMF.

The fight between the parties will take at the beginning of the next session which will be in late march (half the group is off for holidays in the snow), and not as planned yesterday. So I will have enough time to work everything out in more detail.

Last session, the party, instead of leaving the active volcano and get some fresh air, decided to investigate an old mining stronghold located in the volcano (the guys were tempted by potential treasure, the brass dragon NPCs suspected that there might be "unguarded" stuff to collect in the old mine).

Fire giants made the complex but perished some years ago, still their corpses roam the halls as undead.

The typical fire giants were spellstitched skeletons, but the leader of the former mining group was sort of a lavawight-type foe and mauled the party badly (one melee PC killed due to a rolled 1 against massive damage, the second melee PC at negative hp) before the arcane casters could bring the foe down with Polar Ray and Freezing Spheres. The fight lasted only 4 or 5 rounds, IIRC, and was the third encounter involving undead giants.
After the initial harmless fights with some fire giant skeletons, the party pressed on (but the fighter was complaining about the heat and suggested to leave the mine instead... would have been wise...perhaps) and faced the lavawight...

Now the party is quite depleted of spells, and the dead PC was brought back to life by the cleric. However, the group was able to repair later a fire giant half-iron golem (they got some instructions from an imprisoned ghost wizard who desperately wanted to finish his last construct), and they can now control the thing.

After they have dealt with all the undead giants, the party left the cavern along with their new toy. That's when our game time was over for the day. The player of the cleric suspects that something is not ok, he wondered why the three sleeping places of the orcs in the cavern were separated by some distance, and why the three orcs have left some coins, but nothing else... At least someone has paid attention...

So now they are very low on spells but have a fearless, strong, but slow and quite dumb guardian. It will be a tough and deadly fight, and I don't intend to spare them. The players should know from the fight with the lavawight that they are not death-proof

 

[GaimMastr]

Devils Advocate

Why should you invent reasons not to use this tactic? Use it and let the PCs figure out how to deal with it. Its not as if this is a super secret tactic which relies on DM fiat. Same applies to the bomber tactic.
Imo its pretty boring when you hand everything to the PCs on a silver platter.

It can also be very boring when your players have studied the books so much that they have a contingency for everything and turn CR challenges that should wipe the party handily into walks in the park. In my worlds there's nothing better than a GM fiat. But then again I tend to me more visceral and stroytelling/refereeing, than tabletop wargamee.


As for spending the extra time making the dragon so it can't be hit whist at the same time depleting the PC's resources and damaging them, why do this. It sounds like a bully tactic a GM would use and a GM i'd call off on 99% of the time as a player. It's also against the spirit of the game if you put this same amount of undue effort into every encounter or skirmish to use the correct term.

 

[GaimMastr]

My input

The one critical thing your not understanding about AMF is that it's an emanation centered on the middlemost intersecting lines of the 5x5 square area the dragon is occupying. It's effect would barely make it outside the dragons chest cavity, i.e. useless fro what your intending it to do. Expect your PC's to argue that first if they are paying attention in the "red haze" will call it. Secondly, the APL of the party is 20 (not including any prep they have taken) and the CAEL of the impending battle is, from what I'm reading somewhere around 27-29. So I'll assume that you started the game with a higher difficulty setting (i.e. More than standard point buy) and have very skilled and clever players, which is good, for their escape here, cause that's about all they can hope to do or wipe by round 3-5. By round 2 if your accounting is correct you've "halved" the effectiveness of the party from 20 to 15, and placed the enemy groups AEL up to somewhere around 30. Meaning the encounter, in terms of APL vs. ECL is too far off the scale for standard expectations, so expect the unexpected. By round 3, Likely all of the party will have all but been subdued or killed and the living encumbered or helpless ones will be getting a mudhole stomped in them by the encroaching swarm of cultists. Good job... What now tough guy

The dragon is ready for battle... Its spell selection is mostly based on defensive and emergency exit spells. The few offensive spells don't deal energy damage, but weaken or slow the foes instead.

Sjachixen (very old gargantuan red dragon [fire], CR 21, 751 years), "Fire Shadow"

Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy)
Senses: darkvision 120 ft, low-light vision x4, listen +30, spot +30
Languages: common, draconic

HD: 31d12, 450 hp
AC: 42, touch 9, flat-footed 42 (-4 size, +30 natural, +3 deflection, +3 armor)
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +17, Will +25
Immunities: sleep, paralysis, fire
Resistances: DR 15/magic, SR 26

BAB +31, grapple +56, trip +25 vs. +29
Full Attack:
1x Bite +40 (4d6+13, 20/x2), 20 ft.
2x Claw +38 (2d8+6, 20/x4), 15 ft.
2x Wing +38 (2d6+6, 20/x2), 15 ft.
1x Tail Slap +38 (2d8+19, 20/x2), 15 ft.
or: Tail Sweep, DC 33, 2d6+19 (only max. small creatures)
or: Crush, DC 33, 4d6+19 (max. medium creatures)
or: Breath Weapon, DC 33, 60 ft. cone of fire (18d10, recharge time 1d4-1 rds)

Abilities: STR 37, DEX 10, CON 27, INT 22, WIS 23, CHA 22

Feats: Multiattack, Flyby Attack, Snatch, Hover, Wingover, Power Attack, Iron Will, Suppress Weakness, Overcome Weakness, Recover Breath, Silent Spell

Skills: Appraise +11, Bluff +18, Concentration +42, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (geography) +11, Knowledge (nature) +11, Listen +30, Move Silently +25, Search +30, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +30, Spot +30, Survival +21, Use Magic Device +28

Special Qualities: no cold weakness, blindsense 60 ft.

Spell-like Abilities: 9/day - Locate Object, 3/day - Suggestion

Spells known (CL 13):
0: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance
1: Alarm, Disguise Self, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield
2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Silence
3: Blinding Breath, Dispel Magic, Haste, Protection from Energy
4: Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin
5: Cloudkill, Righteous Might, Transmute Rock to Mud
6: Antimagic Field, Word of Recall

Used equipment: Ring of Protection +3, Bracers of Armor +3, Claws of the Ripper, Amulet of Proof against Detection


Plan:
The dragon has placed three alarm spells (mental alarm) in the cavern that the PCs will pass through. The cavern was used by the cultists' orc guards before (until they got killed), and the dragon has hidden a few coins at some sleeping places of the orcs. The PCs haven't searched the area yet, and they do not stay there when the cultists and the dragon set up their ambush.

When the first alarm goes off, the dragon knows where the PCs are, and he will start to cast his long-term defensive spells: Resist Energy (acid), Protection from Energy (cold), Stoneskin (in that order). When the second alarm goes off, he casts See Invisibility and Disguise Self. When the final alarm goes off, he casts Shield and Invisibility.
The cultists get the information about the triggered alarms by signs. They have Darkvision activated since nightfall and will hide behind an Illusory Wall above and to the side of the cavern.

As soon as the PCs leave the cavern at night, the dragon will cast a silenced Greater Invisibility. The PCs will see a dark landscape weakly illuminated in red from the fire in the volcanic crater, and ash is falling out of clouds lingering low in the sky. The erupting volcano is making a lot of noise: hissing sounds, explosions, rocks cracking. The ground is trembling slightly. Overall, it is a very dark, eerie scenery.

Once the party is in the open area and the cultists' remaining guards start their ambush using bows, the dragon casts Evard's Black Tentacles to hinder a possible retreat of the PCs. The cultists get ready to interfere with spells cast by the PCs. Because it is a surprise round, the evil guys only have standard actions. The cultists don't attack because their part in the ambush is to block all exit spells of the PCs. They can't fulfill this task if they get detected early and are forced into a spell duel (which they won't survive for more than 1 or 2 rounds).

In the first regular combat round, the dragon will cast Blinding Breath and dive-fly-by-attack the group with his breath weapon. This will do about 100 damage at a decent DC, half of the group will likely make their save (the two brass dragons will ignore the fire, but they are seemingly no big threat ), while the others will now be burned and blind. I assume that the party is protected by Resist Energy (fire), and the damage will be 70 (or 20 if saved) instead. Not that much for level 25 guys, but the blindness is nasty and the dragon is still invisible. The bowmen will fire as long as possible, their arrows are non-magical, thus they are not afraid of hurting the dragon (but the dragon will not take care of their healthy anyway).

Depending on the PCs actions, the cultists' cleric will disrupt the first PC exit spell by casting Silence, while the necromancer and the wizard readies to cast a Dimensional Anchor if any susbsequent teleportation spell is cast. The dragon will cast a Ray of Enfeeblement on the strongest-looking PC and then position himself for melee combat against the party wizard or cleric (depending on their actions and if not blinded, he'll ignore weak and/or blinded PCs if possible). If his breath weapon was not as successful as expected, the dragon will cast AMF instead of RoE and position himself close to the wiz or the clr...

From then on, it is difficult to foretell how everything develops.
The cavern will collapse due to the eruption during round 2, and spit forth smoke, ash and some lava bombs in the process.

I decided not to go straight with tha AMF but use it as a back-up if the PCs think that they can handle the situation all too easy (or if they were too lucky with their saves).

Two things add a chaotic element to the battle:
1) The artefact that is in the possession of the cleric (or the cleric is possessed of the artefact ). It will work even in an AMF, and could force the dragon to retreat ASAP (or be dead).
2) The mnk/ftr/drd is infected by lycanthropy (totally forgot that), and it is now her "first" full moon... I intend to play it out a bit similar as in that Van Helsing movie, where the werewolf was in wolf form only when in moonlight. The PC will change shape when the moon is visible between the clouds, and this would happen at the right moment.


Comments or alternative strategies are welcome!
The Encounter EL&XP calculator 4.01 lists that as a trivial challenge. However, I increased the dragon's CR from 21 to 25 because of his extensive preparation and AMF option, which makes it a challenge (EL 27 would mean very difficult).

 

[GaimMastr]

The AMF is too small to start with to be relevant. The effect of the spell portion of the breath weapon is magical, the effect of the breath weapon itself is extraordinary and not subject to the irrelevant AMF.

Decide beforehand if the blinding effect from Blinding Breath is magical in nature (and thus goes away in the AMF) or not (which means there is no way to cure it inside an AMF). If it is the latter the dragon should, if he manages to blind many/most of them, instantly cast AMF and take out the cleric (who was hopefully prevented from healing himself by the wizards).
Also, don't forget the dragons crush ability. If the PCs don't scatter the dragon with AMF can simply crush them to death.

Of course that only applies if you run a real combat instead of holding back to make sure that the PCs win.