Wild Empathy and Swarms

[Mistah J]

Hey all,

Just curious how people think the wild empathy class feature should react with swarms.

Take a swarm of rats for example. As a tiny animal they are a legal target for a character with wild empathy to try and change the attitude of. But they are also a swarm - so there is lots and lots of individual rats.

As far as I can tell by RAW, there should be no problem here. A swarm is treated as a single creature for many purposes so wild empathy should be ok. I'm just wondering how many people would go with that, or would add some circumstance modifiers, "rule-tweaks" or other such things.

What do you think you would do?

 

[frankthedm]

As far as I can tell by RAW, there should be no problem here. A swarm is treated as a single creature for many purposes so wild empathy should be ok. I'm just wondering how many people would go with that, or would add some circumstance modifiers, "rule-tweaks" or other such things.

What do you think you would do?

Are you sure the rat swarm has a hive mind?

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.

 

[Vegepygmy]

As far as I can tell by RAW, there should be no problem here.

I agree.

I once ran an adventure where a 1st-level druid needed to get an object that was surrounded by a swarm of rats. I ruled that he could use his wild empathy to shift their attitude from unfriendly to indifferent, and then carefully walk through the swarm to safely retrieve the item. I think that was both thematically appropriate for a druid and correct by the RAW.

Are you sure the rat swarm has a hive mind?

It doesn't need one. Wild empathy doesn't have an "effect" to which the swarm is immune unless it has a hive mind.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Are you sure the rat swarm has a hive mind?

A swarm is immune to effects that target a specific number of creatures, however, wild empathy (in turn based off of Diplo) does not specify a number of targets that I can see.

This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person

You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs.

Thus it seems to me the rules allow a swarm to be affected regardless of hivemind status. The swarm's initial attitude and the circumstances would weigh heavily just like any interaction, so it might not be practical to influence a particular swarm, but it should be within the rules to try.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I concur. Wild Empathy works on any number of animals near you. Granted, as a swarm, the rats are probably ravenous and the druid will need to take a -10 for a rushed "diplomacy" (if that's even allowed, I always assumed so), lest the rats eat her.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't think wild empathy can work on a swarm unless it has a "hive-mind" since it targets "an animal" and not "animals". It also takes 1 miunte of interaction time, I somehow don't think that a druid or ranger would have that kind of time when encountering a swarm.

I also worry that is an attempted tactic to bypass (or reverse) a spell like summon swarm.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.

The PHB also gives examples of what it can apply to "an animal (such as a bear or a giant lizard)" - singular in example.

 

[Jhaelen]

Wasn't there some druid sect in the Eberron setting that focused on insectoid stuff? Did they maybe have some special rules for interacting with swarms?

 

[Vegepygmy]

I don't think wild empathy can work on a swarm unless it has a "hive-mind" since it targets "an animal" and not "animals".

So it's your position that if a druid encounters two wolves, he can use wild empathy on one of them, but not both?

How do you interpret this rule? "You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent." Does that mean you can move diagonally past one creature, but not two creatures?

I don't think so.

 

[irdeggman]

So it's your position that if a druid encounters two wolves, he can use wild empathy on one of them, but not both?

How do you interpret this rule? "You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent." Does that mean you can move diagonally past one creature, but not two creatures?

I don't think so.

One at a time - it does talk about interacting with the creature for at least 1 minute also. Each requires a separate check.

Also I refer back to the PHB (not the SRD which is missing the text):

an animal (such as a bear or a giant lizard)

More specific than the generic moving text you are quoting since it is specific to the actual ability being described.

The text you are quoting is also taken out of context since the passage it is describing is under "measuring distance" and is there to talk about how to measure distance moved. The pictures describing diagonal movement and moving around corners on pg 147 are there to illistrate the effects on distance moved - in fact the diagonal movement talks about treating diagonals as having a distance of 1.5 squares or 7.5 ft.

 

[frankthedm]

What do you think you would do?

If it works, here how it would play out. Unleess the druid is out of the reach of the swarm, its chewing on him for 8-9 rounds since wild empathy takes a minute. each round there are two checks the drud has to do.

Distraction (Ex)

Any living creature vulnerable to a swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ swarm’s HD + swarm’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in a swarm’s description) negates the effect. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Concentration check.


Druid: Wild Empathy round 1.
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 3
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 4
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 5
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 6
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 7
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 8
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 9
Rat Swarm: Move into druid's space, deal auto damage
Druid: Must make DC 12 fort save or be nauseated, roll DC20 concentration check. Wild Empathy round 10, roll check.