Wild Shape

[daTim]

Me and my group have a question regarding Druids Wild shape and wether they gain increased hit points due to increased Con while in animal shape. Here is what we have so far.

Druid Wildshape: This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here.

Polymorph Spell: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

Alter Self: You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, HIT POINTS, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same.

It seems to me, since it says that you gain the Con score of the animal you change into in the Polymorph description, that you would gain or lose HP based on your shape change. This is a noted change from Alter Self. But it never says in Polymorph that you DO gain the Hit Points. I think this is what we are stuck on. I seem to remember in 3.0e that you got the Con increase, but it only affected Con checks and Fort saves, but not HP. That doesnt really make sense to me. You are tougher in some ways... but not others?

Is there any official ruling on this, or are we missing some key text here. Thanks for any help.

 

[brento766]

let em have it

I would rule based on what you have posted that they would get the hit points. I think it is trying to say that you don't reroll hit points as the creature that you are likely to turn into may have higher hit dice. But you still have more con which would give you bonus to add on to your base.

 

[Pielorinho]

This is an ongoing question. I come down on the side of no hit point changes, but other people come down very reasonably on the other side of the issue.

For me, it's a play-balance issue: HP changes make the bear forms even more desirable, and they're already among the best forms. They go even further to discourage cool forms like rabbits and hawks, since changing into these forms when you're already wounded could prove fatal. Finally, they make druid need one less high ability score -- if CON changes, druids only really need a high WIS, and that gives them a huge advantage over other character types.

I want to encourage druid players to change into a wide variety of animal forms, to use the ability for scouting, escaping, travel, and disguise in addition to pure combat; I therefore leave HP at the base level.

Daniel

 

[daTim]

Well, I only ever use the Dire Ape and Dire Wolf shapes for combat, and have a 14 Con, so my HP wouldnt change anyway. It came up because last game I changed into a Rhino for its powerful charge and noticed it had a very high Con score.

I frequently turn into eagles or owls for scouting at various times in the day, or even escape.

My Druid is 9th lvl, has horrible stats 14 Wis/Con being highest, only one magic item (a +1 scimitar) and is still somehow incredibly powerful. I think I may have found a clerics match heh.

 

[GodPhoenix]

The rules are, at best, unclear.

I think the sage has said that he didn't see any reason why HPs wouldn't change...but the wording of Alter Self says that HPs don't change. Many threads have been spun around this issues (and other wildshape issues)

I allow it because I think the advantage of more HPs is balanced (altough Pielorinho presents a reasonable argument too). There's a danger of dying if you sink below the # of HPs you gained from the Con change...you can avoid it by wildshaping again and getting the healing benefit of wildshape...but that uses up one of your wildshapes/day.

 

[Darklone]

Some official answers from Custserv said it does not change... but the one I read here told me pretty clearly that he didn't think about it (referring to Alter Self is silly since Alter Self does not change CON).

I play with the change in hitpoints and I really like it. And yes, often the druid has to stay in animal form cause changing back would kill her... so she prefers to get her Con boosted anyhow. That balances Con 8 druids who rely on wildshape IMHO.

 

[jgsugden]

Positional summary:

The Sage: Skip said he couldn't see a reason why con would not change HP. That infers he never saw the Alter Self restriction. Further, he never went so far as to say that hp do change, but the inference was there.

Custserv: Split answers - somr say yes, some say no.

Andy Collins (3.5 PHB lead designer): Andy never said directly what was intended, but a post inferred that in his campaigns the hit points of a druid do not change.

Internet community: Split. In general most DMs favor no change, most players favor a change. This is just a trend I noticed. It is not true of every case, but it is true in a majority of the ones I noticed.

Balance/Game issues:

Changing hp with a change in con increases the utility of the spell dramatically. A wizard using polymorph can gain a lot of hit points for a short period of time. If there is a cleric available for healing after the battle, these extra hit points are effectively free.

It also decreases the utility of the spell in a small fashion. Many forms become poor choices because they will reduce the caster's hit points. There are few creatures with a con less than 10, but there are some ... and there re many with a 10, which is a significant reduction in hit points for many characters.

Changing shape with polymorph already slows the game down *a lot* PCs constantly need to recalculate their AB, saves, etc ... Recalculating hit points can be a large burden on top of the other issues. Example: Tom has a 13 con normally and 35 hit points maximum at character level 10 (a wizard). He has taken 10 points of con damage (reducing his con to 3 and his max hit points to 10 due to a mimimum of 1 hp per level). He has also taken 7 points of normal damage (leaving him with 3 hit points). Tom wants to polymorph into a form that normall has a 17 con. The math to figure out his current hit points is not hard, but it involves many steps and a lot of back cecking on how damage was dealt and in what order.

Polymorph is inherently problematic. Gaining a +24 to strength is a bit of a stretch in increasing power. Changing hit points could be just another of the inherent flaws in the spell. If you're truly worried about balance issues, I suggest a house rule limiting polymorph with a LA limit as well as a HD limit. This will involve creating LAs for many creatures, but it is worth the trouble. I find that an LA limit of +1 per 4 levels of the caster (max +4) keeps the spell in check.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm in the camp that wildshape doesn't give or take hp from con changes. That's how it was in 3.0, and since the text is ambiguous stay with what has worked. Personally here's my argument.

Alter self talks about no change in con, but still mentions no change in hp. Why would it need this argument... unless your HD actually changes? But it also says your level stays the same. So either that point about no change in hp is there strictly for polymorph... or its because in fact your HD does change with your new form.

So by saying that polymorph does indeed allow hp changes for con, you must also admit that polymorph changes your hd.... which opens up a whole other can of worms, and now allows the druid to get d10's instead of d8 plus his new con.

Or.... you can just stick with the good old reliable way, avoid any problems and ambiguities... and just stick with no hp change.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For me, it's a play-balance issue: HP changes make the bear forms even more desirable, and they're already among the best forms. They go even further to discourage cool forms like rabbits and hawks, since changing into these forms when you're already wounded could prove fatal. Finally, they make druid need one less high ability score -- if CON changes, druids only really need a high WIS, and that gives them a huge advantage over other character types.

That is a strong argument that warms the heart of the balancenazi in me.

I will throw another one in the hat for consideration. Alter Self uses the exact same wording as Reincarnation. While I do not see it as a big deal which way you play Polymorph, I cannot stand the idea that an Elf reincarnated into a Dwarf does not gain the advantage of his new Con with respect to hit points (or the reverse).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A bit of a tanget but I have a counterargument for you, Pielorinho.

If the Druid expects to spend combat wildshaped the value of Wisdom is decreased because he does not need to rely on magic for an effective offense -- he can concentrate on buffs and SNA. Having more skill points looks attractive if you do not care about spell DCs -- you will 'never' get surprised if you keep your Spot, Listen, and Survival maxxed (in combination with Scent and/or Track).