D&D (2024) Shapechange Spell a bit OP now?

DrJawaPhD

Adventurer
Now???? It was always OP.
^This. Shapechange was always OP and the only way to deal with it is to break concentration or to dispel magic, both of which still work the same way.

I'd buy the argument that Shapechange is even more OP now since you retain spellcasting abilities now, but Temp HP is irrelevant, no one was ever breaking Shapechange by damaging thru the HP pool
 

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^This. Shapechange was always OP and the only way to deal with it is to break concentration or to dispel magic, both of which still work the same way.

I'd buy the argument that Shapechange is even more OP now since you retain spellcasting abilities now, but Temp HP is irrelevant, no one was ever breaking Shapechange by damaging thru the HP pool
Yep! I opened the thread half expecting someone to have posted that "always was" astronaut's meme. (This feels like an apropos time to link to my favorite character optimization document ever.)

But, yeah, getting a ton of temporary hit points doesn't in itself seem especially overpowered for a 9th level spell that requires concentration. It's only relevant if you're going to be taking a lot of damage, and if you're taking a lot of damage, you're probably not going to stay concentrating on the spell for long.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Now combine this with armor of Agathy...

It takes 17 levels to get Shapechange. That's a long term plan, lol.

^This. Shapechange was always OP and the only way to deal with it is to break concentration or to dispel magic, both of which still work the same way.

I'd buy the argument that Shapechange is even more OP now since you retain spellcasting abilities now, but Temp HP is irrelevant, no one was ever breaking Shapechange by damaging thru the HP pool

From the 2014 version...

During this spell’s duration, you can use your action to assume a different form following the same restrictions and rules for the original form, with one exception: if your new form has more hit points than your current one, your hit points remain at their current value.

2014 Shapechange was possible to power through the hit points. The Dragon Turtle example would have ended the Shapechange after 341 hp of damage because shape-shifting couldn't replace those hit points with a shape-shift like the 2024 version can.
 


Ashrym

Legend
It's only relevant if you're going to be taking a lot of damage, and if you're taking a lot of damage, you're probably not going to stay concentrating on the spell for long.

That depends. Saving Throws don't always fail on a "1". The 1's and 20's rule only applies to attack rolls. If my caster has War Caster and proficiency in CON saves that's a lot of attacks that can be dismissed for the concentration check. +3 CON bonus and that proficiency means any single attack that does less than 22 damage (DC 10 min) will automatically succeed on that concentration check.
 

Ashrym

Legend
I'm going to agree to disagree with you there. You break concentration, dispel it, counterspell it in the first place, etc. You don't deal 341 damage just to dispel one magical effect. That's silly.
How often are your PC's facing opponents capable of dispelling or counterspelling your PC's? Seems more like the exception than the rule to me.

Breaking concentration is a plan, but individual attacks don't add up to a big DC to break it.

Both of those are beside the point. They are still options. That doesn't mean the thp are not much better. They can be renewed easily, unlike those hit points, and the options you gave as alternatives aren't necessarily available.
 

That depends. Saving Throws don't always fail on a "1". The 1's and 20's rule only applies to attack rolls. If my caster has War Caster and proficiency in CON saves that's a lot of attacks that can be dismissed for the concentration check. +3 CON bonus and that proficiency means any single attack that does less than 22 damage (DC 10 min) will automatically succeed on that concentration check.
There are spells that break concentration easier. If you incapacitate a creature, concentration is broken without a save.
A stun, paralyze, even the lowly sleep spell can break concentration easily.
 

Ashrym

Legend
There are spells that break concentration easier. If you incapacitate a creature, concentration is broken without a save.
A stun, paralyze, even the lowly sleep spell can break concentration easily.
That's still true for all concentration spells and doesn't justify amping them up as demonstrated by looking at other concentration spells. Most of them should be amped based on that presumption.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Shapechange grants temporary hit points when shape-shifting, not when casting the spell, and doesn't lose them with the form. During the duration of the spell this can be repeated with a Magic action. For example, shape-shifting into 300+ hp creatures 60 times during the spell duration can generate over 18000 thp if they are getting used up. It's not likely that much will happen, but 3 good fights in an hour can generate a massive number of thp.

Thoughts?
The opportunity cost in combat for a 17th+ level character spending an action is extremely high. This does not advance the party in the combat at all, just makes this one particular character hard to kill via normal HP attrition. That's enough right there.

In addition they don't have any features to make them sticky, so any theoretical tHP gains really need to be evaluated with who would be attacking them for HP damage, especially after seeing it happen once.

That's just fine.

EDIT: Just realized it's more than just fine. Say you are getting the maximum out of this, and foes are slamming you for 299 HPs of damage a round. Are you really making those Concentration saves?

The refreshing of tHPs aren't actually an issue at all, since they actual limitation on the spell if getting attacked is losing Concentration, which would happen well before that first 300 HP form is lost.
 

That's still true for all concentration spells and doesn't justify amping them up as demonstrated by looking at other concentration spells. Most of them should be amped based on that presumption.
It is a 9th level spell that competes with wish.

Yes, very powerful. More problematic than before? Not really.

I think THP need clarification/ a little overhaul though.
Especially polymorph type spells were not well thought out. Giving THP depending on the CR instead of spell slot level seems wrong.
 

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