D&D 5E Wild Speculation: Athas, the World Without Dragons

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
See, I find the First World idea merely as the designers trying to put an in-game spin on something that has 100% been true out of game this entire time...

...that despite countless players continually insisting that THEIR D&D world is not connected to any other D&D world or universe or setting or whatever, their D&D world just happens to include the exact same monsters, monster abilities, races, race abilities, classes, class abilities, magic items, planes, physical abilities, mental abilities, attacks, defenses, armor, equipment, and every single other thing that gets taken out of the rule books that we all use to play D&D. Even if some things here and there get changed or removed by a player for their world, the predominant amount of stuff that shows up in a person's game is exactly the same as what shows up in everybody else's.

Which means like it or not, every player's D&D world * IS * connected to every other D&D world played by every other D&D player across the globe because we are all playing D&D. It is a single game and we are all sharing it. And that's why they've been trumpeting the whole Multiverse thing... to actually bring all of the players of D&D together. You might not want to admit it... but your D&D game has more similarities to every other D&D game out there than differences. And this First World fluff is just giving an in-story reason as to why its the case.

Now, did the D&D designers NEED to write in-game stories about why this is true? Nope. They didn't have to. It hadn't been done in editions past and everyone just sort of understood it at a baseline level even if it wasn't explicitly said. But now they've decided to actually write it down. Okay. But now that they are saying it... the question to ask is "does it actually change anything?" And to that of course, the answer is as always "No." Because those who refused to accept the idea that their D&D game was at all connected to any other D&D game is still going to say that. That will NEVER change. It doesn't matter whatever stories or fluff WotC writes for the game going forward because those who have their own way of doing things from the past will continue to do so regardless of what the books say. It's the same reason why it doesn't matter if D&D books going forward do not make all orcs Chaotic Evil by default-- because if you are a classical D&D player and you want all orcs to be CE, you can do it for your world as much as you want and ignore what WotC writes. Same as it's always been. And the First World stuff is the same way.

Fact is... if you don't want your game to be considered a part of the grand tapestry of Dungeons & Dragons... if you really need your game to be off on your own island somewhere and not a part of the D&D Multiverse... the answer is simple.

Don't play Dungeons & Dragons.

Play a different game. Then you never have to worry about it. Do that and you will never have to be considered part of the D&D Multiverse, with all the stories, ideas, and identities that it brings. You can be your own thing if that really matters to you and you'll never have to read anyone else saying you are a part of something you don't want to be.

Or just play D&D and not care what WotC writes down in their books. Which seems to me to be the easiest answer of them all. :)
 

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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Fact is... if you don't want your game to be considered a part of the grand tapestry of Dungeons & Dragons... if you really need your game to be off on your own island somewhere and not a part of the D&D Multiverse... the answer is simple.

Don't play Dungeons & Dragons.

Play a different game. Then you never have to worry about it. Do that and you will never have to be considered part of the D&D Multiverse, with all the stories, ideas, and identities that it brings. You can be your own thing if that really matters to you and you'll never have to read anyone else saying you are a part of something you don't want to be.
What a spicy hot take. Spicy as mayonnaise. Edgy as safety scissors.
Or just play D&D and not care what WotC writes down in their books. Which seems to me to be the easiest answer of them all. :)
Which is why...
I recognize that WotC has made a decision.

But given that it's a stupid decision I have elected to ignore it.
I can still rant and rave and express my frustration at their terrible design decision, though.
 


Aldarc

Legend
See, I find the First World idea merely as the designers trying to put an in-game spin on something that has 100% been true out of game this entire time...

...that despite countless players continually insisting that THEIR D&D world is not connected to any other D&D world or universe or setting or whatever, their D&D world just happens to include the exact same monsters, monster abilities, races, race abilities, classes, class abilities, magic items, planes, physical abilities, mental abilities, attacks, defenses, armor, equipment, and every single other thing that gets taken out of the rule books that we all use to play D&D. Even if some things here and there get changed or removed by a player for their world, the predominant amount of stuff that shows up in a person's game is exactly the same as what shows up in everybody else's.

Which means like it or not, every player's D&D world * IS * connected to every other D&D world played by every other D&D player across the globe because we are all playing D&D. It is a single game and we are all sharing it. And that's why they've been trumpeting the whole Multiverse thing... to actually bring all of the players of D&D together. You might not want to admit it... but your D&D game has more similarities to every other D&D game out there than differences. And this First World fluff is just giving an in-story reason as to why its the case.

Now, did the D&D designers NEED to write in-game stories about why this is true? Nope. They didn't have to. It hadn't been done in editions past and everyone just sort of understood it at a baseline level even if it wasn't explicitly said. But now they've decided to actually write it down. Okay. But now that they are saying it... the question to ask is "does it actually change anything?" And to that of course, the answer is as always "No." Because those who refused to accept the idea that their D&D game was at all connected to any other D&D game is still going to say that. That will NEVER change. It doesn't matter whatever stories or fluff WotC writes for the game going forward because those who have their own way of doing things from the past will continue to do so regardless of what the books say. It's the same reason why it doesn't matter if D&D books going forward do not make all orcs Chaotic Evil by default-- because if you are a classical D&D player and you want all orcs to be CE, you can do it for your world as much as you want and ignore what WotC writes. Same as it's always been. And the First World stuff is the same way.

Fact is... if you don't want your game to be considered a part of the grand tapestry of Dungeons & Dragons... if you really need your game to be off on your own island somewhere and not a part of the D&D Multiverse... the answer is simple.

Don't play Dungeons & Dragons.

Play a different game. Then you never have to worry about it. Do that and you will never have to be considered part of the D&D Multiverse, with all the stories, ideas, and identities that it brings. You can be your own thing if that really matters to you and you'll never have to read anyone else saying you are a part of something you don't want to be.

Or just play D&D and not care what WotC writes down in their books. Which seems to me to be the easiest answer of them all. :)
Uncoincidentally enough, this is the approach that Mattel and Fandom are going with for their Greyskull Legends RPG. Instead of trying to create a singular "canon" for the different versions of Masters of the Universe or the TTRPG, they have declared that it's all part of the MotU Multiverse plus anything else you create for your games.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Of course. And I can rant and rave about the people who are ranting and raving. ;)
"Don't play D&D" isn't a rant and rave about the people who are ranting and raving.

It's "Get outta my game if you don't like it". Which is just shutting down conversation.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
"Don't play D&D" isn't a rant and rave about the people who are ranting and raving.

It's "Get outta my game if you don't like it". Which is just shutting down conversation.
I wasn't telling you not to play D&D. I was merely stating the fact that the only way for someone to not be a part of the D&D Multiverse was to not play D&D. If you play D&D, your game is a part of the D&D Multiverse. And it's not me saying that... it's the people who own the game that are, because they can write down whatever they want and they can say whatever they want in the books that they write. And if it's written down in the books, then those are "the rules" for those books.

And once that happens, players can then choose to ignore or change those rules if they wish (which is already true for every single other aspect of the game, so this is no different). If a person wants to ignore the fact that their D&D game is a part of the D&D Multiverse, they absolutely can. Or if that's not good enough for them... they can make the choice not to play D&D at all (and thus are by definition no longer be a part of the D&D Multiverse). Entirely up to them, and no one's forcing them either way.
 

Amrûnril

Adventurer
See, I find the First World idea merely as the designers trying to put an in-game spin on something that has 100% been true out of game this entire time...

...that despite countless players continually insisting that THEIR D&D world is not connected to any other D&D world or universe or setting or whatever, their D&D world just happens to include the exact same monsters, monster abilities, races, race abilities, classes, class abilities, magic items, planes, physical abilities, mental abilities, attacks, defenses, armor, equipment, and every single other thing that gets taken out of the rule books that we all use to play D&D. Even if some things here and there get changed or removed by a player for their world, the predominant amount of stuff that shows up in a person's game is exactly the same as what shows up in everybody else's.

This may be true of some worlds, but certainly not of all of them. As I see it, published monsters and magic items are a list of suggestions, not any sort of fixed cannon, and there are enough of both that you're only likely to see a fraction of them in any campign, even before you start factoring in homebrewing. This latter point is even more true about classes and subclasses. Ability scores and associated mechanics may stay the same, but that's because a game needs a consistent rules framework to be a game, and any number of distinct settings can be built around that framework.

As for planes and cosmology, yes, some people do assume they remain constant becasuse the designers describe them as a constant, but that's very much an active choice by the developers rather than a response to any pre-existing pressure. I'd be very much in favor of eliminating such descriptions, not just to support setting differentiation, but because I find such concepts far more compelling when they can remain mysterious.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
...but that's because a game needs a consistent rules framework to be a game, and any number of distinct settings can be built around that framework.
Exactly. If you play a D&D game, regardless of the number of rules you change... you are by definition playing D&D. Which means you are a part of the D&D Multiverse, because everything to do with D&D is within the Multiverse, as defined by the people who own it, control it, and write it.

But look... I am by no way saying this is how it is always going to be. Some time down the line a new set of writers and designers for D&D might change that fluff and story and remove the idea of the Multiverse. And if that happens, then everything goes back the way it was back in Ye Olden Days when no one thought about it or wrote any of it down. You'll just have to wait long enough to hope that it happens.
 

Amrûnril

Adventurer
Exactly. If you play a D&D game, regardless of the number of rules you change... you are by definition playing D&D. Which means you are a part of the D&D Multiverse, because everything to do with D&D is within the Multiverse, as defined by the people who own it, control it, and write it.

This is one possible definition of the D&D multiverse, but it's a broad enough definition to be effectively meaningless.

My understanding of the D&D multiverse, and the understanding that I think others object to, is based on the shared cosmology described in Appendix C of the Player's Handbook. Plenty of D&D games don't share this cosmology, and I think it's a mistake for the designers to treat it as a universal or default setting element.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I recognize that WotC has made a decision.

But given that it's a stupid decision I have elected to ignore it.

Having Dragons "Tied to the Prime Material Plane" like outsiders are to their planes is just so, so, myopically bad. T

well.... why aren't there dragons in non-material planes? It seems that, much like giants, dragons really prefer the material plane. Why is that?
 

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