Wilderlands vs Dawnforge

[JoeGKushner]

It's no secret that the Ennies threw off my review schedule. I've got numerous books read that I still need to write the actual reviews for, some of them not even 'review' books but books I received for the Ennies.

In that spirit, I was able to take the holiday and finish off my reviews of Player's Guide to the Wilderlands and Dawnforge, and it's first supplement. (I could've did the adventure too, but I try and do them in batches so that goes in the next batch.)

Now to me, these two settings are coming at it from completely different angles and I see things in each I like.

I'd love to play in a Dawnforge setting but I'm such a rules-control freak, that I'd hate to run it. The various bonuses the characters get pile up so far and furious that I'd be nervous about being able to properly challenge the characters without killing them.

Wilderlands is an old, classic setting and for me, comes with a lot of baggage. The whole multi-pantheon thing and generic demon lands, etc... are so 70s. That's a good and bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

It's hard to stack the two up as Dawnforge has already seen two books and Wilderlands only recently one adventure, but are people using either of 'em?

 

[PJ-Mason]

I understand what you mean about Wilderlands. Its a blast from the past. Very awesome. loved the map too. I'm taking a break from D&D, but when i return to it, Iron Kingdoms and Wilderlands are the two things that are going to get a serious wearing out.
The multi-pantheon thing i look at as a cool device for roleplaying interaction. When asked by my players to describe the Wilderlands i told them this:

"Its like the Conan movie (the real one!). Everything is kinda new and old at the same time. Its the cross roads of the world, with different civilzations clashing and where different religions and cultures meet. There is thousands of miles of wilds and lands untouched by mankind, just waiting for you to make your own mark upon them. Ready yourselves."

 

[JeffB]

I know little about DF. I looked at the book in my FLGS, but nothing grabbed me, so I never bought it.

As for the Wilderlands. Love it. Not that it's without it's problems. I too am annoyed by Pantheon. Back in the 70's when I was a kid, I could care less.. my first Paladin, was a Paladin of Odin, and our characters picked patron gods willy-nilly out G,DG&H, and later D&DG. But as I got older, and having been subjected to many cohesive pantheons in gaming products and literature (most notably Glorantha opened my eyes in this regard), it began to strike me as silly. I don't like the mixing of "real world" naming conventions for fantasical things in my RPGs. For example, LA's "Desperado" order, The "Extreme Explorer" of Eberron, etc.. those thing bug the crap outof me

But once I get my C&C materials, and start up a game, I'll most likely use the Wilderlands, as there is ALOT more great material than there is silly...I find just as much goofy stuff in other campaign settings like the Realms (which uses some real world mythologies/deities..e.g.Silvanus), Greyhawk, Glorantha, etc...

One can always rename the Pantheon in the Wilderlands quite easily, I suspect.

 

[Melan]

I don't know anything about Dawnforge, but I do run a Wilderlands campaign, and have been doing so since about mid to late 2002. As I worked on the materials that went into the boxed set (and edited some of them, too), my experiences may be different from those who only own the PG at the moment. But here it goes:

The Wilderlands is very adaptable. There is some relation between the various lands, pantheons and races, but you can just as easily modify/drop some or many of them. For example, I dropped the Demon Empires from the world (as I do not think they really fit), reduced the number of non-humans to more accurately reflect sword&sorcery traditions and messed around with ancient history (my Wilderlands experienced a nucular war around -8000, then a golden age with the Atlantean Empire vs the Dragon Kings, ending in yet another cataclism that eventually destroyed both), etc. Until late 2003, I used the 3.0 rules, but switched to my own variant of Castles & Crusades thereafter, which I use to this day.

As evident from what I have written above, you will have little problem changing the ways the world works. I love the mixed pantheons, myself, but you can substitute a better organized one with ease. Once you get the box (hopefully mid 2005... hopefully), you can just as easily drop and add things. It works modularly. Just because I, a designer, added some laser rifles, you can remove them if the thought bothers you.

That doesn't mean the Wilderlands is just an empty canvas. Far from it. It is pretty much "D&D meets classic sword&sorcery". It was influenced by fantasy lit that was mainstream in that era, but has fallen by the wayside since (and seems strange today for this reason). Here are a few key features (as seen in my games - the baseline setting is a little bit tamer):
1) Think of the "known world" as the Ancient Mediterranean in the Hellenic age. This is a much better historical paralell than "mediaeval Europe cca. 1200", even if you encounter chainmail and whatnot. This is an era of strange gods, discovery and independent city states which constantly change allegiances, war against each other, or engage in trade to far away locations.
2) Cultural norms vary. You can encounter the strangest ideas and beliefs in isolated pockets of the land. Communities are self sufficient and can protect their own. Most common men can and do fight.
3) Many different faiths exist in the same place, and their power is often only local - some of these small gods are just extraordinarily powerful mortals or monsters. Religion isn't all-encompassing. There is no "common morality" either. Evil clerics don't have to hide from the authorities - on the contrary, many of them are so well entrenched that they rule over smaller cities.
4) There are also ruins from bygone ages everywhere. The wilderness is full of crumbling walls, abandoned edifices and strange temples. Monsters stalk these uninhabited areas. Sometimes they are occupied by cultists, brigands or they are the strongholds of high level (read: 6th to 9th) NPCs. If you look hard enough, you may even find a downed spaceship or an abandoned command outpost from the days when an interstellar race ruled over the planet. Not too likely, though.
5) Slavery (of the antique variety) is commonplace. Most cultures own slaves and don't think twice about it. Drugs are consumed for religious purposes or entertainment. Sexual mores are loose - when you have a temple of Aphrodite (or of Tama Hama!) in your town, you won't be thinking too much about it.
6) Much of the world is sea (as opposed to others, where seas usually surround continents - e.g. Greyhawk or the FR). The islands are a veritable repository of the strange and unusual. Ever read (or seen) Sindbad? Or the adventures of Odysseus? That's what awaits. Rocs, decadent high level wizards, mysterious standing stones and lost cities.

Maybe I'll write more later.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I've neither played nor run Wilderlands, but I'm playing in a long-running Dawnforge campaign. I think you're overestimating the impact of the added racial abilities. It's true that they increase the effective character level. It's also true that the book gives guidelines as to how much it changes them. You should have no problem challenging characters without killing them, any more than you can in a "normal" game, because the numbers are provided for you.

And I think the world is fascinating. I love the "agest past" mythic feel to it. I've said before, there are very few campaign settings I'd be willing to run "out of the box." Dawnforge, however, is one of them.

(Requisite disclaimer: I worked on the book, albeit only on a couple of chapters. I don't believe this invalidates my opinion, particularly since the campaign I've been playing in hasn't even involved either of the areas I wrote about. Still, I mention it for the sake of fairness.)

 

[Ashanderai]

I would like to second what Mouseferatu said. We have been playing for several months now (with some interuptions for playtesting and playing mini-games in other settings) and in the beginning our DM had the same concerns you that do; however, in actual play he hasn't had any trouble. The same thing goes for the co-DM that just took over too. In fact, we barely survive our adventures. All of our characters have at least one lasting scar, mark, or taint of some kind. We are currently 7th level and it is a blast to be able to convincingly pull off being heroes in the beginning of their legends. Other games we have played did not quite have the legendary feel at the lower levels like this game does. I should point out that it isn't just that our characters have more abilities than they would in other games at the same level, but the legendary feel comes from being able to take on tougher foes and stories than we normally could in other settings.

Our party consists of:
- a female trueborn disciple (think similar to an aasimar - who just recently got corrupted with infernal power - but we don't know that yet)
- a silent and brooding (and massive!) male minotaur fighter that is a former pit-fighting champion (currently very scarred with fur that is growing back white from battles with certain acidic slimes and assorted demons). This player is also co-DM.
- a male lizardman shaman (turned weretiger and recently made an albino due to a battle beneath a volcano in tamerland involving a tiny piece of the plane of elemental cold coming onto the prime material plane - lots of tieflings, fire and cold elementals and monsters, and demons). This player is also co-DM.
- Mad Jack Mathonby - a highlander spirit adept looking to restore his clan someday to "his" highlands (an insane and impulsive warrior who has had to fight himself, survived plants growing from his body and eyes, and generally will get things decided one way or the other if the party deliberates too much - he could also pass for a bard with all the time he spends telling tales about the party's exploits in taverns when he gets drunk)
- and we just recently had a female night elf rogue join the party this last session (1st time gamer doing well)

We were playing in the Wilderlands just prior to playing in this one and I think all of us find this setting far more enjoyable.

 

[Melan]

Joe - I can't log in at the review site, so I'm going to say it here: great review!

 

[MonsterMash]

I'm using the Wilderlands for my campaign which started early this year, but I had the Judges Guild versions of the City State of the Invicible Overlord and Wilderlands of High Fantasy from many years ago so I had a lot more material to work with than just the PGttW.

 

[Mystery Man]

What's Wilderlands?

 

[Melan]

Mystery Man: a D&D campaign world originally published in 1977 (it was the first product to explicitely focus on this), later expanded by four additions, city supplements and so on. It is being republished by Necromancer Games.