Will buy.com get sued?

ShadowyFigure said:

The funny thing is, it's quite possible that Buy.com will actually deplete their stock, leaving a bunch of people who just changed their orders stuck waiting for more books to come in. Then they'll be getting their books after Amazon customers.

Better still, this'll probably allow Amazon customers who stayed with Amazon to get their books even earlier.
 

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filthgrinder said:
I haven't seen people posting pictures of them posing with the books.

You mean like this.

booksuy8.jpg
 

Toryx said:
The funny thing is, it's quite possible that Buy.com will actually deplete their stock, leaving a bunch of people who just changed their orders stuck waiting for more books to come in. Then they'll be getting their books after Amazon customers.

Better still, this'll probably allow Amazon customers who stayed with Amazon to get their books even earlier.

I was thinking this but I wasn't going to say it (since I'm sticking with the 'zon)! ;)

As far as penalties go, I wouldn't count on any action or word from WotC. They have in the past just shrugged their shoulders at such things, and they've repeatedly said that they're cool with online retailers functioning however they want to function (in regards to discounting, at least, so street dates probably aren't any different...sales are sales).
 

pedr said:
Sure. I would have been surprised if liquidated damages were unenforceable - but people are using the word 'fine' and 'penalty', and I wonder how you could estimate/agree on a quantification of damages to WotC for the early release. All the discussion seems to suggest a true penalty clause, in the sense you used it, which we wouldn't enforce over here - apparently on the grounds that it's actually economically inefficient for people to be held to contracts which cost them less to breach than to honour, and economic efficiency being more important than holding people to their agreements. Or some such - it's been a long time, and I now avoid private law like the plague!
Alright, I take back my "usually" that I said above. I didn't realize we were being this precise with our language.

We have the same principles about economic efficiency in contract law.

A true penalty clause would be tough to enforce. But there are clauses which impose penalties but which are not penalty clauses, and those can be enforced. For example, WOTC could contract to give buy.com certain rebates on the purchase of books for sale by buy.com, with the provision that the rebates are void if buy.com does not adhere to the release date. This would not be a true penalty clause, but would still have the practical effect of costing buy.com money if they do not comply with WOTC's instructions.
 

pedr said:
Sure. I would have been surprised if liquidated damages were unenforceable - but people are using the word 'fine' and 'penalty', and I wonder how you could estimate/agree on a quantification of damages to WotC for the early release. All the discussion seems to suggest a true penalty clause, in the sense you used it, which we wouldn't enforce over here - apparently on the grounds that it's actually economically inefficient for people to be held to contracts which cost them less to breach than to honour, and economic efficiency being more important than holding people to their agreements. Or some such - it's been a long time, and I now avoid private law like the plague!

Usual caveats apply: I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer, this is not intended as legal advice, etc.

The statement above is basically a correct statement of US contract law. In every US jurisdiction that I am aware of, liquidated damages clauses are legal, but penalty damages are not. There might be a serious issue of proving that a liquidated damages clause for blowing a street date was actually intended as liquidated damages, not as a penalty, but, especially if the overall size of the liquidated damages is not too high, you might be able to get it upheld as a reasonable quantification of the damage to WotC's advertising campaign and relationships with other vendors. (Amazon and game stores might in theory be able to sue for tortious interference with contract/tortious interference with a business expectancy on the theory that they had contracts to sell copies of the books that were then terminated based on buy.com's wrongful behavior, but that would be an uphill argument.)

In theory, you could also argue that buy.com intended to breach at the time of contract formation, in which case it arguably constitutes fraud, not breach of contract-- the prior practice of breaking other street dates, if true, would be part of this argument. That would allow punitive damages, as opposed to liquidated damages intended to represent actual damages.

Also, of course, companies that sufficiently anger their business counterparties find that they have less people interested in doing business with them, so if WotC really cares, and buy.com doesn't have too much value to them as a customer, WotC might cut them off in the future. That's a major way of "enforcing" business contracts, because it's cheaper than getting lawyers involved. (Conversely, buy.com might agree to pay a penalty that they thought that they could beat in court to save the lawyers' fees and to try to preserve the relationship.)

BTW, wrt the earlier questions about a class action: that would be very difficult. The argument on buy.com's behalf would be that the individual fact patterns (i.e. what do the contracts say, what were the exact patterns of the alleged breaches) predominate over any common facts. Besides, without a number of similarly situated plaintiffs that is high enough that joinder is impracticable (i.e. generally more than 50), there is no need for a class action. So you would have to find lots of other vendors who have had street dates violated by buy.com, then argue that the situations are all sufficiently similar despite the different details of the contracts, the marketting, etc. I doubt that you would be able to pull it off.
 

Brown Jenkin said:
You mean like this.

Just for the sake of argument... the guy in that picture is flipping the bird, not holding up a newspaper.

For all I know, he's a buddy of Someone Official and posed with the books as a joke. There's no evidence that the photograph is from yesterday.
 

Korgoth said:
Just for the sake of argument... the guy in that picture is flipping the bird, not holding up a newspaper.

For all I know, he's a buddy of Someone Official and posed with the books as a joke. There's no evidence that the photograph is from yesterday.

Right, he hasn't established the date which would prove that he had them before release....so it could totally a hoax and the picture is from the future when the books have been released?

(I do note that the placement of the books appears to be to make photoshopping as easy as possible)
 

Thanks for indulging the curiosity of a some-time law geek (taking breaks from grading administrative law exams). The way things were being discussed here - combined with discussions in other contexts elsewhere - led me to wonder if our laws on this had radically diverged, which given Posner's influence would have surprised me.

I remember being resoundingly confused by our brief introduction to economic theories of law as a first year (and first year undergraduate, at that!)

The idea of competitors having a claim is interesting. We have legislation allowing contracts for the benefit of third parties, providing some way round privity problems, so here a manufacturer might be able to include the fact that the terms are intended to be of benefit to others in the contract. That came in towards the end of my studies and I don't really understand it, not having had to worry overly-much about contract law for about ten years, though!

Apologies for the threadjack!
 

Im honestly a bit surprised that that there is not a massive outcry that this is some kind of conspiracy by WOTC and Buy.com to finally kill off the FLGS.

Pleasantly surprised, that is. Then again, maybe im just on the wrong forums for that. ;)
 


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