Will Levels be taken out and shot?

[Frostmarrow]

I was just thinking about Eyes of the Lich Queen, which I have ordered but not yet received. The adventure is set in Eberron for levels 5-9. It is not news to anyone on these boards that this adventure is niched twice from the get go. First you need a party in Eberron and secondly you need to be 5th level to be able to use it.

I dont think Wizards will give up their business model of supporting different settings for their game. I don't now why they keep this up but I guess they try to cast a wide net. (For me I'd just the same have D&D be the setting.)

So I wonder: In 4th edition will levels be removed? -Frankly, what is the importance of levels? If there were no levels every module would fit every group. Every monster would fit every group and it would be simpler to target players with new feats, prestige classes and challenges if there were no levels involved.

Of course, I do enjoy levels in play but not enough to justify their existance since they are an obstacle when it comes to buying products.

Naturally you need to have some model for experience and growth in the game but I'm sure the designers can come up with something that works if they were ordered to*. I think Wizards really want to sell Eyes of The Lich Queen to every group with a game in Eberron, not only those whom just happens to be at 3-4th level.

What do you think, will levels be the next sacred cow to get taken out and shot?

 

[Frostmarrow]

*

You could for example have a point buy system instead. Every character, monster, or encounter is worth a certain amount of points. So my character, Ilian Celsius, is not a 3rd level Wizard but worth 21 points instead. A girallon is not CR 8 (or whatever) but 56 points. An encounter is X points of goblins, where X is the total worth of the player group.

 

[Dirigible]

What do you think, will levels be the next sacred cow to get taken out and shot?

'Next'? What other holy bovines have been executed?

 

[Frostmarrow]

'Next'? What other holy bovines have been executed?

Kits? No, I was actually thinking Dragon and Dungeon, but nevermind.

Back on topic: Levels - worth keeping?

 

[morbiczer]

You could for example have a point buy system instead. Every character, monster, or encounter is worth a certain amount of points. So my character, Ilian Celsius, is not a 3rd level Wizard but worth 21 points instead. A girallon is not CR 8 (or whatever) but 56 points. An encounter is X points of goblins, where X is the total worth of the player group.

You mean like in the Miniatures game?

 

[MerricB]

You could for example have a point buy system instead. Every character, monster, or encounter is worth a certain amount of points. So my character, Ilian Celsius, is not a 3rd level Wizard but worth 21 points instead. A girallon is not CR 8 (or whatever) but 56 points. An encounter is X points of goblins, where X is the total worth of the player group.

You're not solving anything there. You're just substituting "points" for "levels".

"This adventure is for 500-point characters!" No difference, really. You're telling the DM what range of characters can be used.

The only way you solve that problem is by removing advancement, and that is a Really, Really Bad Idea. D&D is about getting Cool Stuff, and advancement is a prime way of getting Cool Stuff.

Cheers!

 

[Morte]

It seems to me that D&D's meat and drink is "kill things, take their stuff, and level up so you can kill bigger things and take bigger stuff, then repeat".

I don't think they'll ditch levels unless they ditch that.

 

[Melan]

Will Levels be taken out and shot?

No. Levels and hit points work, and are perfectly familiar - comfortable to anyone who has played a CRPG/MMORPG. Resistance to levels usually comes from a segment of tabletop roleplayers, while the rest of the world doesn't mind them.

Now Vancian magic - that will be deader than a very dead thing, and probably be replaced by a per-encounter alternative or something.

 

[S'mon]

I think Levels and in particular the quest for the next Level is one of the great motivators of D&D. It's notable that CRPGs mostly take a very similar approach. I think they'd be very foolish to discard the lure of the level-up.

 

[Frostmarrow]

You're not solving anything there. You're just substituting "points" for "levels".

"This adventure is for 500-point characters!" No difference, really. You're telling the DM what range of characters can be used.

The only way you solve that problem is by removing advancement, and that is a Really, Really Bad Idea. D&D is about getting Cool Stuff, and advancement is a prime way of getting Cool Stuff.

Cheers!

Well, I'm no designer. I'm convinced a clever designer can create a system of growth and experience that is compatible with a modules without level spans.

But this could work, couldn't it?

Encounter with goblins for 100 point party: 12 goblins @ 8 points. or

Encounter with goblins for 500 point party: 1 goblin captain @ 15 points, 1 goblin shaman @ 23 points, and 58 goblins @ 8 goblins.

The leader carries the map needed to advance the plot...