WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Freakohollik]

The trick is use the Scepter from Area 25. Poke the gold end of the scepter into the cup like depression, and the doors swing right open! Poke the silver end into the doors, and you'll be teleported back to Area 6, naked as the day you were born.

Maybe the players decide to bash down the doors? Well, if the doors are cut with a sharp weapon they start gushing blood like the elevators in the Overlook Hotel. In 20 minutes, blood will fill the room to the ceiling. The module provides a list of several spells that players might cast at the gushing blood. Each has a different effect; some of them seem pretty far fetched. Also, any kind of fire, even the torch you've been paying your henchmen to carry around, turns the blood into poison gas that kills everybody in the room, no save.

IMO: Obviously, the players are expected to try the Second Key on the Mithral Valves. It won't work, and somebody will take a relatively trivial amount of damage. My guess is that lots of groups will get confused and burn a lot of time monkeying around with the Second Key here.

Acererak has told us that the Throne in Area 25 is "key and keyed." We've already seen the Scepter open one secret door. Arguably, those are clues showing the right way to get through the doors. The concavity could be a clue as well, particularly if the DM describes it in a way that connects it back to the Scepter.

How are the players supposed to know which end of the Scepter to use? The silver end worked back in Area 25, but it doesn't work here. The general rule in Area 25 seemed to be "like touches like." Touch the gold end of the Scepter to the gold crown. Touch the silver end to the silver crown on the throne. Mithril is silver, nothing in Area 29 is made of gold, so that pattern fails here. Am I missing something?

This is one of the few traps in the module that I don't like. I don't see anyway to know which end of the sceptor to use, and the penatly for doing it wrong is really harsh.

The second key is also strange. The antipathy effect is there for flavor, but you need the key later on. If everyone fails their save to use the key, you're going to need some really inventive play, or more likely DM leniency to continue.

 

[Blackbrrd]

We are back to the point mentioned earlier that it's time to use divination to reduce the risk of trying things out. Something I would probably do after getting sapped by one of the first keys...

 

[Bullgrit]

That being said, maybe the blood is there for the greedy players who try to cut the doors loose to sell them. After all, any reasonable pricing of mithril (especially if they are solid) would suggest that it is time to go home and rejoice at a successful and profitable dungeon expedition.

You know, thinking about a little bit more: Are these doors actually made of mithral? The text says they are -- it doesn't say this is an illusion or fakery, it says they are mithral. But they bleed when cut. Is this supposed to be a magical effect? But the doors are "absolutely spell and magic proof," even though the magic scepter will magically unlock them.

Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?

Bullgrit

 

[Votan]

You know, thinking about a little bit more: Are these doors actually made of mithral? The text says they are -- it doesn't say this is an illusion or fakery, it says they are mithral. But they bleed when cut. Is this supposed to be a magical effect? But the doors are "absolutely spell and magic proof," even though the magic scepter will magically unlock them.

Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?

Bullgrit

The idea that the doors are solid mithril is hard to know. That being said, even a mithril coating is worth a lot of cash. I wonder if the enchantment would survive being melted down in an anti-magic field, for example. Absolutely magic and spell proof is (ironically) slightly on the vague side.

In general, absolute effects are less interesting to me as time goes on. Just like the scepter/crown that kill without any save. Does that work if you sneak up on Odin?

 

[Gentlegamer]

Some of this stuff would feel more appropriate in a module like Gygax's Dungeonland and Land Behind the Magic Mirror -- a weird-fun environment where crazy-fun things happen. But in a module presented as a serious and thought-needed challenge, some of these tricks/gimmicks just feel out of place. Things like this door and the green slime tapestry and more seem more fitting for a whimsical adventure.

This is a false dichotomy in old-school D&D. When you had time-traveling paladin-cowboys, space-travel to Barsoom, and dungeon levels like the "Living Room" (where the furniture comes alive), gonzo is the rule, not the exception in old-school thinking, at least at Gygax's table.

 

[Stoat]

Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?
Bullgrit

Just looking at the 1E PHB, their best bet is for the 14th level pregen Cleric's to cast Commune. As I read it, the Cleric will get guaranteed true answers to 14 yes/no questions. Obviously, whether or not this gambit succeeds depends on what questions the player's ask.

Augury isn't bad, but it isn't great either. You only get one question, the answer is either "weal" or "woe", and there's an 84% chance you get it right.

Aggressive rules-lawyers might try Find the Path. "The spell will enable the cleric to select the correct direction which will eventually lead him or her to egress, the exact path to follow (or actions to take), and this knowledge will persist as long as the spell lasts . . ." (emphasis added). So if (a) the spell can lead the cleric to a place on the other side of the door; and (b) the "actions to take" part of the spell is interpreted generously; then FtP should do the trick.

The 14th level pregen Wizard can cast Limited Wish. Who knows what happens if he wishes to know how to open the Mithral Valves? The wizard also has Contact Other Plane, but I'd avoid using it.

 

[FoxWander]

My group cast Find the Path just after finding the MAGICAL SECRET DOOR (area 17). We were running the Tomb as a one-shot, it was getting late and they wanted to try and speed things up. I think the "actions to take" bit is key here. The spell will show you exactly where to go and how to bypass traps along the way but it won't tell you anything about items you might need to find along the way (such as the Tomb's various keys) until you actually need to use them.

So, at the point my party cast it (just before the lab) it should have lead them through the lab with no mention of the FIRST KEY* then straight to the concealed door in the AGITATED CHAMBER. If they were careful moving the "tapestry" and didn't waste time trying to loot they would have gotten through this fine because the room takes 1 turn to start shaking. Then they would have totally bypassed the siren, gone straight to the FALSE/TRUE DOOR and it's secret door beyond- bypassing the poorly described juggernaut trap as well. At the ADAMANTITE DOOR the spell would have said something like "insert 3 swords to open door" then lead them straight to the throne. There it would tell them to "touch the silver end of the scepter to the inlaid thrown to reveal passageway" leading them to this room. Here it would make no mention of the SECOND KEY (you don't need it here, it wouldn't 'care' about that key until the CRYPT) it would simply say "Insert gold end of scepter to open doors" then lead them to the chamber beyond. And so on.

When they actually need the SECOND KEY it would simply tell them to "Insert key and turn 3 times to the right to raise vault." There should be no mention of what key its talking about or where it came from. It would only mention the "actions to take." Luckily the key they need wasn't hidden anywhere. If it was the FIRST KEY they needed here this could be extremely frustrating and lead to a lot of backtracking- or casting Find the Path to get the missing key.

So Find the Path is an extremely useful spell, but if it leads you past necessary items it can be a very double-edged sword indeed. It happens to work quite well in the Tomb only because the items actually needed to "solve" the Tomb are put right in the very Path the spell helps you Find



[sblock=* interesting bit about the FIRST KEY- only sblock'd because it's a discussion for later in the thread] In fact, Find the Path would never 'mention' the FIRST KEY at all, as it is never used anywhere in the dungeon! It only has one function which is mentioned in the final crypt so I'll wait until then to talk about it- but never finding the FIRST KEY could totally change how this dungeon plays out![/sblock]

 

[Blackbrrd]

Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?

Bullgrit

As a player getting shocked from trying to use one of the keys, I would use augury or something similar before my next experiment. It's a non-lethal way of experimenting and would still allow us to come up with ideas, and not getting them from the DM (I mean divination)

 

[Bullgrit]

I understand letting the conversation for each room/area have time before bringing up the next room/area, but maybe giving more than a week between is too much?

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

This is the most lucid, concise and on-topic thread on EN World. I think it can stand to age a little. Like a fine wine that no-one wants to open lest it spoil.