WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[FoxWander]

But wouldn't the efreet urn and the treasure chests also detect as magic (and evil for the efreet)? And they actually are magic (and evil). So, in a room with 8 things to mess with, 7 of them will detect as magic, 5 will detect as evil -- but only 3 are actually magical and only 1 is actually evil. Of the 4 false magic/evil things, 1 is the key to move forward in the Tomb. And the party has no way of determining what is true magic/evil and what is giving a false positive.

Bullgrit

I'm not sure what being detectable as both magic and evil but not actually being magic or evil has to do with anything. The statues are pretty much the only things in the Tomb that could possibly be "iron men of visage grim" so it's very unlikely that would be misinterpreted here. But then, right after perhaps the most conclusive line of the poem (!) it tells you to go LEFT twice. So why would any party bother looking at the statue to the RIGHT of the door? After the requisite number of Transformer comments (they are "more than meets the eye") most party's will likely waste hours examining the east ("left") wall.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Left/Right are only relevant from a starting position and orientation, which of course the riddle doesn't provide.

Also, I agree with Bullgrit. What is the point of a room that gives false readings for the only two divination spells that are allowed to work? More and more, the Tomb feels like an exercise in saying "screw you" to the players, even as you frustrate their attempts to un-screw themselves.

 

[Freakohollik]

But wouldn't the efreet urn and the treasure chests also detect as magic (and evil for the efreet)? And they actually are magic (and evil). So, in a room with 8 things to mess with, 7 of them will detect as magic, 5 will detect as evil -- but only 3 are actually magical and only 1 is actually evil. Of the 4 false magic/evil things, 1 is the key to move forward in the Tomb. And the party has no way of determining what is true magic/evil and what is giving a false positive.

Bullgrit

No way except by poking and using the same bomb squad tactics that have got you them this far. It's the spirit of the module. I'm not sure what the problem is. Do you want Acererak to spell out exactly what to do? The poem is pretty close as it is.

 

[Bullgrit]

Do you want Acererak to spell out exactly what to do?

This thread has managed pretty well without anyone going to this hyperbole. Do you really want the discussion to go this way?

Bullgrit

 

[Freakohollik]

This thread has managed pretty well without anyone going to this hyperbole. Do you really want the discussion to go this way?

Bullgrit

No. But I would be interested in your thoughts on how this should part should have been done.

 

[Bullgrit]

But I would be interested in your thoughts on how this should part should have been done.

How I think this should be done is irrelevant. I'm just bringing up my confusion at how it's presented. The designer claims this is a "thinking person's" adventure, and its fans around here say it is "fair" in that it can be successfully navigated using the Tomb's clues and the Players sense. I'm wondering about these clues and how Player thinking can/should work here.

Having all the clues and the answers in front me, I'm just not seeing the thinking/sense of it.

Bullgrit

 

[Gentlegamer]

Having all the clues and the answers in front me, I'm just not seeing the thinking/sense of it.

“When a [module] and a head collide and there is a hollow sound, is that always in the [module]?”

 

[Hussar]

“When a [module] and a head collide and there is a hollow sound, is that always in the [module]?”

In this case? I'd say yup, it's the module. The module bills itself as being a certain way. There's ample evidence in this thread that it doesn't live up to that billing. Blaming the player or the DM is ignoring all the evidence that has been presented.

There are numerous scenarios in the module where "smart" play doesn't actually help you. The only way forward is to pixel bitch your way through and try every single combination until you hit the right one. There's little to no guidance given to the players to allow them even the notion of what is the right answer.

If flipping a coin is as effective as planning, then there's something wrong.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Getting through the Tomb feels more like executing a QA test plan than it does like having a heroic adventure.

 

[Freakohollik]

In this case? I'd say yup, it's the module. The module bills itself as being a certain way. There's ample evidence in this thread that it doesn't live up to that billing. Blaming the player or the DM is ignoring all the evidence that has been presented.

There are numerous scenarios in the module where "smart" play doesn't actually help you. The only way forward is to pixel bitch your way through and try every single combination until you hit the right one. There's little to no guidance given to the players to allow them even the notion of what is the right answer.

If flipping a coin is as effective as planning, then there's something wrong.

I'd say it's more a difference of opinion rather than "ample evidence". It's clear that Gygax considered smart play to involve lots of caution, poking everything, and divination spells.

It's not 100% perfect, but I think the issues can easily be fixed with a prior readthrough and without any major revisions.