WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Bullgrit]

Yeah, but how exactly is the mage supposed to use the spell? Acererak strikes instantaneously, and then sinks back down on his own. What's the point where using the spell makes any sense?

Well, in fairness, the text does say the skull rises and scans the group for the most powerful individual to drain. I guess the forget spell could be used during that scan.

But I think Joshua Randall was meaning: forget is a 2nd level m-u spell. A 2nd-level spell "will force the skull to sink down without taking away a soul." (No save is mentioned.)

Exorcise is a 4th-level cleric spell that duplicates what forget does.

Shatter, a 2nd-level m-u spell, does 10 hp damage to the skull. (Skull has 50 hp.)

Dispel evil, a 5th-level cleric spell, does only 5 hp damage to the skull.

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

Well, in fairness, the text does say the skull rises and scans the group for the most powerful individual to drain. I guess the forget spell could be used during that scan.

I.. guess. That implies a fair DM.

Let's say one allows forget to be used like that. One mage casting forget and another using shatter at the same time could really humiliate him. You'd probably need to go through every spell with augury to find out about it (but they are at the beginning of the list).

 

[Joshua Randall]

Yeah, but how exactly is the mage supposed to use the spell?

Exactly.

What's the point where using the spell makes any sense?

It never does. That's my point.

Bullgrit's list is a good illustration of what I was trying to say. The spells that affect A. are completely arbitrary both in selection and in effect.

The claim that Tomb of Horrors is a thinking person's adventure has been completely demolished.

It is an adventure for bomb squad members or QA testers, willing to figure out which arbitrary idea Gary had in mind for how to approach each encounter. A. himself is only the last and most egregious example of that.

 

[jonesy]

I am simply fascinated by how this thread refuses to go off-topic.

The claim that Tomb of Horrors is a thinking person's adventure has been completely demolished.

Let's not go from one extreme straight to the other. I recall Bullgrit saying the same to me much earlier in the thread. But that was about something else.

Since this was the first appearance of the demilich (I think) you could call all of its properties arbitrary, regardless of what they would have been. No player of the era would have known anything about it beforehand.

And since this was a tournament module prototype some of the problems can be excused. Excused but not forgotten as the module does need a DM to go through it with a fine tooth comb before presenting it to players.

All of which isn't to deny that it has been an overly hyped module.

 

[jonesy]

By the way, I have an idea of why the page numbers are reversed on the forum page.

You know how if you place the word 'print' into the topic the thread turns into print form and no-one can reply to it?

I think the ] letter at the end of the title somehow flipped the numbering around. I haven't seen any other threads with that.

I wonder if there are instructions somewhere for what title commands there might be in vBulletin.

 

[FoxWander]

That would be well worth all of the trouble actually.

But I don't think that's a 1st edition price. Sounds like 3rd to me. I don't think they had specific prices for them back in 1E. Mithral was simply woven into armor to make it +4 and adamantite made +5 armor (and +3 armors were considered meteorite steel, which sounds really odd now).

But if the price is even close to that same ballpark, bazinga.

D'oh! Yeah, that price is totally 3rd edition. Got rushed to post before leaving for work and wasn't even thinking. But still- even at 1 gp/lb. that would be almost be worth the trouble of straight digging down from the top of the skull hill to retrieve them. And mithral has got to be worth more than 1 gp/lb.

 

[Gentlegamer]

It is an adventure for bomb squad members or QA testers, willing to figure out which arbitrary idea Gary had in mind for how to approach each encounter. A. himself is only the last and most egregious example of that.

So how do you explain the scepter and crown solution?

 

[Votan]

So how do you explain the scepter and crown solution?

Bad design on the part of the scepter and crown. Is this an item that can kill deities if you trick them into using it? If so, is it not actually the most valuable thing in the tomb (as opposed to a trap)?

Seriously, this simply kills with no conditions or saves is lazy design and begs for creative uses in all sorts of situations.

 

[Hussar]

Votan - to be fair, in AD&D, there are ALL sorts of things like this. You could abuse stuff six ways from Sunday because they hadn't really come to grips yet with legalese rules codification to prevent it.

Heck, how many groups tried to cast "Create Water" inside a target?

 

[Stoat]

So how do you explain the scepter and crown solution?

IMO: The scepter and crown solution is a perfect meeting of good players and good DM'ing. The players are engaged with the game and the setting, and they are ready to think laterally to solve their predicament. The DM is willing to "say yes" and allow an inventive solution to work. It's a great moment.

Of course, if the players are going through the module as part of an ongoing campaign (as opposed to a one-off at a tournament) the trick will get old in a hurry if they keep trying it. Such is life.

The scepter and crown solution was also (IIRC) an on the spot ruling made by Gygax at the request of the referee who was running the module. I'm not sure I would say that the crown and scepter PC's "figured out which arbitrary idea Gary had in mind," but I think it is fair to say that they won by appealing to Gygax's discretion. I also think that Gygax's exercise of discretion was to some extent "arbitrary." He could have reached any number of different rulings if he had cared to.

Which is consistent with the rest of the module. We've seen a number of encounters in the Tomb that could play very differently depending on how the DM handled them -- the timing of the Agitated Chamber, and the precise way the Juggernaut works are the first examples that come to mind.

I hope to sit down and organize my thoughts this weekend, but I'll get a little ahead of myself here. I don't think the Tomb of Horrors gives the players anything like a "walkthrough". I don't think it is possible to get through the Tomb simply by reasoning through Acererak's clues.

On the other hand, I think a group of cautious players can minimize most of the worst risks in the Tomb with a few fairly straightforward tactics. (Most significantly, by sending an expendable scout ahead of the main group.) A group that makes liberal use of magic and rests frequently should be able to make it to Area 33 without a TPK.