D&D 4E Wishlist: Things You'd Hope To See In 4E

[Patlin]

What you want more than what you expect, though if things you've heard about 4e inspire you, so much the better.

Here's mine:

1. Druid wildshaping to be more like the Shifter alternate class feature in PHB II, with more forms and more variety over 30 levels rather than 20.

2. Effective but balanced multiclassing that allows me to play the character I want from level 1. Paladin 4/Sorceror 6/Knight Phantom 1 was cool in 3.5, but the first four levels (in Paladin) didn't feel much like the character I envisioned...

3. Cooler fighters. More to do both inside and outside of combat. Interesting maneuvers, possibly social skills?

4. More interesting racial options. Tempt me away from playing the same race (in 3.5, human) over and over again by making the races balanced and flavorfull.

5. Better social dynamics, with options. My Charisma and Skills should be meaningfull, but a low charisma character without social skills shouldn't be required to sit in the back and shut up. Last session in 3.5 the players who wanted to do the talking felt like they couldn't, and neither of the players who could do the job well were interesting. The scene dragged on forever....

6. More options for designing first level encounters. In 3.5, a huge percentage of the Monster Manual was off limits for a level 1 adventure unless you wanted a TPK.

7. Better stealth. Needing cover to hide makes some sense, but if you wait patiently for the guard to turn his head, shouldn't you be able to quickly dash across the open area without being seen?

8. Keep my favorite out-of-combat things from earlier editions! Magic should be able to do magical things, like summon a Phantom Steed, take the party off to a Magnificent Mansion on another plane, or sail a ship beneath the waves.

9. Make character creation more important than items. My play style shouldn't have to change based on the items I happen to find. For example, Weapon Specialization (greatsword) shouldn't become useless just because you found a cool bastard sword.

10. Keep items meaningfull enough to make the players happy to aquire them.

 

[Celebrim]

Effective but balanced multiclassing that allows me to play the character I want from level 1. Paladin 4/Sorceror 6/Knight Phantom 1 was cool in 3.5, but the first four levels (in Paladin) didn't feel much like the character I envisioned...

If it starts at level 1, then it really wouldn't be multiclassing, would it?

Seriously though, I think everyone (even people like me who don't think that the 4e is justified) want to see classes have more flexibility (while avoiding the problems of point buy). In 3.0 you could have started play as a Paladin 0/Sorcerer 0 using the apprentice rules. Droping them was a step backward.

My personal wish list would include elimenating PrC's from the game in favor of more flexible base classes. Paladin is a real stinker as a base class in terms of flexibility, because not only is it mechanically limited, but its really limited in terms of flexibility. Something like the Holy Warrior class from BotR is much better. Better yet, unify the Holy and Unholy warrior classes from that setting into a unfied 'Champion' class. Better yet, use more copious spell descriptors to help DM/PC's build arbitary 'Champion' classes on the fly by picking a domain.

A flexible enough 'Champion Class' and a sufficiently large feat tree would let you build a character that feels like the above as a single classed 'Champion'.

Cooler fighters. More to do both inside and outside of combat. Interesting maneuvers, possibly social skills?

I like the fighter as a class. It's very good at what it does want to do and its very flexible. If you started adding things to it, I think you'd have the opposite problem: 'What if I want to play a warrior that doesn't have these features'? I've made some changes to fighters to make them more attractive as a long term option compared to a spell caster class, and I've given them some high end feats that practically only a fighter could qualify for that don't just enhance thier damage. But ultimately, I consider fighter perhaps the best designed base class in the game. There really isn't anything about a fighter's flexibility that you can't fix with the right feats, and that's how it should be.

More interesting racial options. Tempt me away from playing the same race (in 3.5, human) over and over again by making the races balanced and flavorful.

I admit that human is the most interesting race, but that is also how I think it should be. I think you are really underestimating Dwarf as an option if you're never tempted from Human. And I've seen some really effective Halfling characters. I've made relatively few changes in the races. About the only change is that Elfs are allowed to choose where to put thier +2 attribute bonus: dexterity, intelligence, or charisma. Also, IMC longbow is an exotic weapon, so Elf is a pretty popular choice.

More options for designing first level encounters. In 3.5, a huge percentage of the Monster Manual was off limits for a level 1 adventure unless you wanted a TPK.

Always been a difficult issue to deal with, and the only really effective solution is to assume that average humans, orcs, goblins etc have about 4HD and then scale up everything tougher than an orc or peasant from there. That way if a wasp has 1 hp, it sorta makes since, a mouse isn't as tough as a house cat, and a house cat isn't tougher than a peasant. But this of course causes so many new problems that so far as I know, no one has attempted it. It sounds like 4e is going to try to solve this partially, by giving 'heroes' bonus hitpoints at 1st level. I'm not sure how I feel about that as a solution.

Better stealth. Needing cover to hide makes some sense, but if you wait patiently for the guard to turn his head, shouldn't you be able to quickly dash across the open area without being seen?

I agree, but I'm not sure that this is the best example of what's wrong with the highly broken clunky spot/hide system. In the case you describe, all you need is the DM to rule that the gaurd has turned away and so the character is no longer being observed. Therefore a hide check is not needed - just a successful move silently check. If you aren't being observed you aren't being observed. Of course, there is a question of how you know you aren't being observed, and that's an example of how many different skill challenges can be involved in something 'simple'. Guess you need those 'sense motive' (to know that the guard won't turn around) and 'spot' (to know that this is the only guard watching the courtyard) ranks after all.

Make character creation more important than items. My play style shouldn't have to change based on the items I happen to find. For example, Weapon Specialization (greatsword) shouldn't become useless just because you found a cool bastard sword.

This is one of the things I've always hated about 'weapon specialization'. It is so freaking limiting. I guess its too late to remove it from the game, and I'm not sure that I would if I could, but sometimes I really wish you could because it has always caused lots of problems.

I think mostly though we are on the same page but have different ideas on how to implement it.

My list would include in addition to the above:

1) Better craft resolution rules.
2) Better spot/hide resolution.
3) Better diplomacy resolution rules.
4) An Evasion/Pursuit resolution subsystem along the lines of the 'Hot Pursuit' rules, but tweaked a little to clear up some of the wacky results of that system in a few cases.
5) Additional universal combat manuevers: circle, parry, aggressive attack, clinch, throw (from a grapple), distract, etc. to allow characters to do things which they intuitively should be able to do.
6) Better handling of the 'step' problem (characters in the middle of melee combat can step/move away from an attacker to leave that combat becoming 'unthreatened' even if thier opponent is conceptually still vigorously attacking them).
7) Longer better designed lists of core feats.
8) 'Military Discipline' and 'Tactics' as new class exclusive skills for fighter types, that open up the oppurtunity for certain small advantages in combat situations.
9) Explicit divine intervention rules.
10) Rules for sacrifices and ritual magic.
11) Rules for sacred sites and groves.
12) Better environment/terrain rules in general.
13) Fewer immunities and absolutes. For example, detect evil should give you a chance to detect the evil - not be automatic (bring the Scrying skill back?). Mind Blank should probably increase your save vs. mind effecting spells by +20, not make you immune. Fire giants should have fire resistance 50 (or something), not necessarily be totally immune (save that for things that actually are made of nothing but fire, like say efreets and fire elementals). Ect. Going for less binary of a system at high levels.
14) Better thought out game breaking spells (polymorph, any teleport, speak wt. the dead, detect evil, know alignment, raise dead, etc.)
15) Better challenge estimation. In particular some addressing of factors that the current CR/EL estimation system really doesn't handle well (like equipment), if only openly discussing what those are. Get rid of some of the more obviously broken issues, like for example that HD of dragon or outsider are objectively better in most cases than HD of classes, yet only count half as much for determining CR. I realize that CR is going away as a concept, but even a flat XP system has to address these concepts.

 

[theredrobedwizard]

5. Better social dynamics, with options. My Charisma and Skills should be meaningfull, but a low charisma character without social skills shouldn't be required to sit in the back and shut up. Last session in 3.5 the players who wanted to do the talking felt like they couldn't, and neither of the players who could do the job well were interesting. The scene dragged on forever....

My Social character isn't useless in Combat because I give you minor competence bonuses to your fighting. You can Aid Another on the Diplomacy check. Same thing. Just because you aren't making the main check doesn't mean you can't add to it.

To paraphrase from a section in one of the Savage Tide AP magazines: "Have the character with the highest Diplomacy score make the check, and have each other character who attempted to help make a DC 10 Diplomacy check to Aid the primary character."

I, for one, want to see the (3xHD)+Con Mod formula for hit points at first level. I really liked that part of SAGA.

-TRRW

 

[Aus_Snow]

Total PC/NPC/'monster' rules symmetry.
Fewer absolutes.
No legacy rules that don't work intuitively with the rest of the game.
Base Defence.

 

[KarinsDad]

Fixing many of the specific rules that gamers have historically argued over on the rules boards over and over again, or have been re-implemented by DMs over on the house rules boards over and over again. If there is this much heat generated over a given rule, there probably is a better way to do it. For example:

1) The Darkness spell.
2) Take 10 and Take 20.
3) Tumbling and Casting Defensively.
4) The Mind Blank spell.
5) The True Seeing spell.
6) Illusions.

The list goes on and on.

It's nice to discuss things and there will always be people taking different sides, even after 4E comes out, but it makes sense for WotC to try to put out the biggest fires from the past. The small stuff tends not to get noticed as much.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

Less math for meleers to worry about. There was a time when the person who couldn't do math played a fighter. Now if you want to be a damage dealer you have to check all your buffs, do your power attack math, and roll multiple times.

Less categories for buffs (deflection, dodge, luck, divine, etc.)
One Dispel Magic in a high level game kills about 10 minutes.

Less prep time to run a druid.

 

[F4NBOY]

-Better weapon mechanics, unerfed bow and shield.
-No immunities and other absolutes.
-VERY condensed spell list.
-Better mechanic for stronger races, no LA.
-No "powers" that take the place of skills, but "powers" that enhance skills.
-No mechanical difference between "common" people and adventurers. PCs should be "better" simply because they go on adventures and gain XP, levels and more powers, etc. PCs should have higher chances of surviving 1st level adventures than ordinary people because they have better ability scores. The only difference between commoners and adventurers should be the ability scores. The 11,10,10,11,10,10 guy knows he should stay home helping his dad with the farm. The 17,12,15,13,12,11 guy knows his capacity shouldn't be wasted with pigs and cows, there is a bigger world out there.
-Faster and easier XP rewarding system.
-Less focus on magic items.

hmmm it's not all, I'm still thinking...

 

[Moon-Lancer]

druid in srd. thats about it.

 

[Aloïsius]

* Fixed spellbooks
* armor as DR
* a more generic approach : there is something else than dungeon crawl in RPG
* no more useless silly material component (cream pie, spider, copper wire...)
* a softer power curve.
* less +"x" items
* less WAR's illustrations, more Lockwood
* no more detect evil and such
* more ritual-like spells or magic. (with increased casting time)
* greater scale magic. Fog cloud in 20 ft diameter sphere is meh. Fog upon a whole forrest is cool. And should not be that much high level.
* fixed saves and evasion. It's bad for suspension of disbelief when you emerge unscathed from a fireball. I would like those reflex save involve a move behind cover or outside the effect area. If no cover available or if the area is too big, then, you can't save for half damage.

 

[Brewhammer]

Less emphasis on 40 & 25 man raids, less rep grinding.