Witchlighter Theme: Need help balancing.

[raptor112]

I'm working on a game world, and as part of an experiment I'm going to run a series of adventures, each with different characters, built around differnet organizations. One of the organizations is called The Witchlight Society, a secret society dedicated to investigating and hunting down (lovecraft style) aberations, devils and the cults that build up around such creatures. The general feel of the organization is supose to be "what if Alan Scott green lantern started Angel Investigations (from the angel tv series) during the dark ages?" The theme is called Witchlighter, and its benefits are supose to be a cross between the Green Lantern powers (alan scott) and supernatural investigations. Here is what I have on the theme:

Witchlighter Theme

As a witchlighter you guard the world against intrusions from both aberrations and devils. To do so you and your fellow members of the society wield the Witchlight. You are one part investigator and one part hunter. You seek out cults, rescue sacrifices and destroy things that crossover into the world. It's up to you to stop the darkness.

Benefit:
Through a secret ritual known only to the society you are imbued with the power of Witchlight.
You gain the at will ability of light (the light is of phosphorus greencolor) and any one ability from this list:
+5 damage to aberrations and immortals.
Crate object. This ability allows you to create mundane items from Witchlight, including things like armor, lockpicks, boxes and weapons. Anything you can carry realistically you can create. This object lasts for 5 minutes or the end of the encounter.
+2 to hit aberrations and immortals.
Non detection. No one is able to detect either you're capable of magic or have magical items on you by either detect magic or other divination abilities. This does not however stop them from figuring out through observation or perception.
Repel aberrations. As per the clericability turn undead once per encounter, replacing undead with aberrations.
Slow them down. On a critical hit against an aberration or devil thats aberration or devil is dazed to the end of its next term.
Detect aberrations. Using theDungeoneering skill you can detect the presence of aberrations and intrusions from outside reality as a free action.
Detect immortals. Using the religion skill you can detect the presence of immortals and infernal devices.

5th level benefit:
A +2 to Dungeoneering and insight.

10th level benefit:
Choose two additional abilities from the list above.

Witchlight escape 2nd level utility power
Encounter
Immediate interrupt
Keywords: Teleport
Trigger: a enemy makes a successful attack against you.
Effect: in a flash of bright green light you Teleport a number of squares equal to your base movement rate.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You mean balance vs other existing WotC supplied themes? If so then some of the options are probably a bit up there. Getting +2 to-hit from a theme, against exactly the sort of monsters you will probably focus on fighting, is pretty good. The damage boost I think is GOOD, but there are other themes that get similarly nice bennies.

Witchlight Escape is pretty nice as an interrupt with a pretty universal trigger, it guarantees negating one melee attack per encounter (and could well negate ranged/area/etc attacks in fairly likely situations). Compare with the Wizard level 2 utility power Shield, which grants a +4 on some defenses, enough to OFTEN cause a miss, but not always, and which is a daily power. In theory the bonus lasts to the end of the PCs next round, but its very rare for that to matter much. Certainly WE is a considerably more desirable power IMHO. As an Immediate Reaction for instance it would still be a decent "oh crud" power (IE avoid multiple attacks, get somewhere safe quick). I'd at least make it a daily in any case to put it more in line with other defensive utility powers. It might be pretty reasonable to elevate it to level 6 too, at least then it doesn't instantly overshadow most wizard defensive utility spells.

I might suggest instead of a +2 to-hit maybe some other interesting buff/debuff. Maybe offer a small auto-damage effect to a devil/abberation with some reasonably likely trigger (say when you kill one you dish out 2/4/8 damage to another one nearby). There are a ton of ways to structure those sorts of bonuses.

Also, given that you are creating a specific setting with specific elements in it, why not explore more setting tie-in type benefits? For instance membership in the Witchlighters must allow for some decent benefits (IE unusual lore, training, resources, etc). While 4e's generally mechanical handling of Class/Theme/PP/ED/Race are convenient for general consumption generic stuff you might as well cash in on being able to get more specific. I'd note that even WotC did this to some extent with their Neverwinter setting.

 

[raptor112]

You mean balance vs other existing WotC supplied themes? If so then some of the options are probably a bit up there. Getting +2 to-hit from a theme, against exactly the sort of monsters you will probably focus on fighting, is pretty good. The damage boost I think is GOOD, but there are other themes that get similarly nice bennies.

Witchlight Escape is pretty nice as an interrupt with a pretty universal trigger, it guarantees negating one melee attack per encounter (and could well negate ranged/area/etc attacks in fairly likely situations). Compare with the Wizard level 2 utility power Shield, which grants a +4 on some defenses, enough to OFTEN cause a miss, but not always, and which is a daily power. In theory the bonus lasts to the end of the PCs next round, but its very rare for that to matter much. Certainly WE is a considerably more desirable power IMHO. As an Immediate Reaction for instance it would still be a decent "oh crud" power (IE avoid multiple attacks, get somewhere safe quick). I'd at least make it a daily in any case to put it more in line with other defensive utility powers. It might be pretty reasonable to elevate it to level 6 too, at least then it doesn't instantly overshadow most wizard defensive utility spells.

I might suggest instead of a +2 to-hit maybe some other interesting buff/debuff. Maybe offer a small auto-damage effect to a devil/abberation with some reasonably likely trigger (say when you kill one you dish out 2/4/8 damage to another one nearby). There are a ton of ways to structure those sorts of bonuses.

Also, given that you are creating a specific setting with specific elements in it, why not explore more setting tie-in type benefits? For instance membership in the Witchlighters must allow for some decent benefits (IE unusual lore, training, resources, etc). While 4e's generally mechanical handling of Class/Theme/PP/ED/Race are convenient for general consumption generic stuff you might as well cash in on being able to get more specific. I'd note that even WotC did this to some extent with their Neverwinter setting.

I agree about Witchlight escape being too powerful, and I do want to balance these against the WOTC generics. Also I like the auto damage idea. Its a good one.
Well the reason why I didn't do anything more specific is because there will only be a handfull of themes that are this world only (maybe 3 or 4 at most) and the WOTC generic themes will be allowed if a player wants them.

Thank you for your imput and support, I hope more people give me some ideas for balance and interesting powers

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree about Witchlight escape being too powerful, and I do want to balance these against the WOTC generics. Also I like the auto damage idea. Its a good one.
Well the reason why I didn't do anything more specific is because there will only be a handfull of themes that are this world only (maybe 3 or 4 at most) and the WOTC generic themes will be allowed if a player wants them.

Thank you for your imput and support, I hope more people give me some ideas for balance and interesting powers

Good luck with it, One idea might be something like "if you use this, the bad guys will come for you" or something like that. Of course you don't have to use theme mechanics for that, but it might be a cool way to get the players in on it.

 

[raptor112]

I posted the theme on my friend's D&D wiki so my players can help me brain storm it

 

[Ferghis]

For what it's worth, I agree with AA that the theme is probably more powerful than it should be. The power, the damage bonus, and the bonus to hit are all greater than anything of comparable level. While some of these are conditional, this is much less of a problem in a campaign focused on hunting demons and aberrations.

On the other hand, this might not be a problem, if you simply want to run a high-power campaign. I would just warn players who consider taking other themes that this one is more powerful, so they understand what they are opting out of.

 

[raptor112]

For what it's worth, I agree with AA that the theme is probably more powerful than it should be. The power, the damage bonus, and the bonus to hit are all greater than anything of comparable level. While some of these are conditional, this is much less of a problem in a campaign focused on hunting demons and aberrations.

On the other hand, this might not be a problem, if you simply want to run a high-power campaign. I would just warn players who consider taking other themes that this one is more powerful, so they understand what they are opting out of.

Ok, what part of the damage bonus and bonus to hit is too high? Both of them are conditional and you don't get both of them at the same time (though you could choice one as the starting benefit and the other as the 10th level benefit). I want to give the PC's who take this theme some flexability in what the Witchlight does (also allows for more then one person to take it in the same campaign) but I also want it to be balanced against WOTC themes.

 

[Ferghis]

Ok, what part of the damage bonus and bonus to hit is too high?

They aren't necessarily TOO high. They're just more than what other themes give you. As I said, if you want to run a high-power campaign, feel free. Just be aware that characters who don't select this theme will be comparatively less powerful.

Both of them are conditional and you don't get both of them at the same time (though you could choice one as the starting benefit and the other as the 10th level benefit).

You answered your own question regarding the clustering of benefits. And, as I said above, if the theme of the campaign is hunting aberrations, then the bonuses are much less conditional. It's like giving a Lawful paladin a bonus to damage evil targets - it's gonna apply most of the time. And this wouldn't be much of a problem (after all, who wants a conditional bonus that rarely applies?), but the bonuses are very high and untyped, meaning they stack with all other bonuses.

Let's compare the +2 to hit to the one gained by the purple dragon theme's power (one of the better themes, if you can meet the prerequisites). That one is an untyped +1, but it only applies to basic melee attacks, and only if you're not using the other purple dragon stance's options, and only one round after you've spent a minor action to start up the stance. Do you see how the bonus you give is better in almost every possible way?

We could compare the damage bonus to the sohei theme (another excellent theme, particularly for weapon strikers). The sohei starting encounter power grants a minor action weapon attack that does [W] bonus without adding an ability score. This scales well with level, but at first level, you're basically adding half a weapon die in damage once per encounter, assuming you hit. Your bonus adds more than most weapon damage averages to every attack, no attack roll necessary. Granted, it applies only to aberrant creatures, but, as I said, that's a campaign thing. Other conditional damage bonuses usually add one point of TYPED bonus per tier. Astral Fire, for example, adds 1 feat bonus to fire and radiant damage per tier. You frontload 5 untyped points.

Also, what Abdul said is absolutely correct. Look at the wizard level 2 utility power Shield (which is an encounter power, I believe), which is widely considered a relatively good power for that level. Your utility is WAY more powerful, and competes for the same slot.

 

[raptor112]

They aren't necessarily TOO high. They're just more than what other themes give you. As I said, if you want to run a high-power campaign, feel free. Just be aware that characters who don't select this theme will be comparatively less powerful.

You answered your own question regarding the clustering of benefits. And, as I said above, if the theme of the campaign is hunting aberrations, then the bonuses are much less conditional. It's like giving a Lawful paladin a bonus to damage evil targets - it's gonna apply most of the time. And this wouldn't be much of a problem (after all, who wants a conditional bonus that rarely applies?), but the bonuses are very high and untyped, meaning they stack with all other bonuses.

Let's compare the +2 to hit to the one gained by the purple dragon theme's power (one of the better themes, if you can meet the prerequisites). That one is an untyped +1, but it only applies to basic melee attacks, and only if you're not using the other purple dragon stance's options, and only one round after you've spent a minor action to start up the stance. Do you see how the bonus you give is better in almost every possible way?

We could compare the damage bonus to the sohei theme (another excellent theme, particularly for weapon strikers). The sohei starting encounter power grants a minor action weapon attack that does [W] bonus without adding an ability score. This scales well with level, but at first level, you're basically adding half a weapon die in damage once per encounter, assuming you hit. Your bonus adds more than most weapon damage averages to every attack, no attack roll necessary. Granted, it applies only to aberrant creatures, but, as I said, that's a campaign thing. Other conditional damage bonuses usually add one point of TYPED bonus per tier. Astral Fire, for example, adds 1 feat bonus to fire and radiant damage per tier. You frontload 5 untyped points.

Also, what Abdul said is absolutely correct. Look at the wizard level 2 utility power Shield (which is an encounter power, I believe), which is widely considered a relatively good power for that level. Your utility is WAY more powerful, and competes for the same slot.

Ok, what if I lower the to hit by one and the damage by 3 or 4 points, and make it radiant (which is what I was thinking of doing to begin with)

 

[Ferghis]

Lowering the hit by one might not be enough to bring it in line with other themes. You could spend a minor action to gain +1 to your next attack. I think AA's suggestion of making it a buff or debuff, or inflicting a small amount of damage on a miss is more interesting.

Making the damage bonus +1 per tier would bring it in line with those kinds of feats. It's still an untyped bonus, which makes it mighty precious to strikers (radiant is a damage type, and I'm talking about bonus types here: feat bonuses, enhancement bonuses, item bonuses, class bonuses, racial bonuses, and so on).

As for the power, I'd make it a daily, and level 6 - if not higher - if you want to keep it as it is.