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With 5e here, what will 4e be remembered for?

Huh. I must have imagined those flanking diagrams in AdnD.

How did you determine shield effectiveness if you were so vague about positioning? Never mind things like space requirements in order to use certain weapons.

I think it's true that lots of people ignored the rules for minis in AdnD. But the rules were there.

Flanking diagrams in the Dungeon Master’s Guide perhaps? The book with a plethora of ideas and rules that you could incorporate into your game if you wanted? Good for you - I’d imagine you’ll probably get more of the same sort of thing in the coming DMG too. But they weren’t in the basic game though - and I have a copy in front of me.

How did we use any of the games rules without referring to battle maps and positioning? We described it and role-played it out. Novel concept it may be to some.
 

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Flanking diagrams in the Dungeon Master’s Guide perhaps? The book with a plethora of ideas and rules that you could incorporate into your game if you wanted? Good for you - I’d imagine you’ll probably get more of the same sort of thing in the coming DMG too. But they weren’t in the basic game though - and I have a copy in front of me.

How did we use any of the games rules without referring to battle maps and positioning? We described it and role-played it out. Novel concept it may be to some.

Given that AD&D and basic D&D are both literally and legally different games (and there's even a court case to prove it) I fail to see how your point here is relevant. If you want to say that basic D&D was a better game because it didn't do things like this, that's up to you.
 

Given that AD&D and basic D&D are both literally and legally different games (and there's even a court case to prove it) I fail to see how your point here is relevant. If you want to say that basic D&D was a better game because it didn't do things like this, that's up to you.

I didn’t, at any point, say basic D&D was better than anything, but it was D&D and yes, every rule in the DMG was presented as an option - it was why it was called a ‘Guide'!

What a pointless comment for you to post.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
Huh. I must have imagined those flanking diagrams in AdnD.

How did you determine shield effectiveness if you were so vague about positioning? Never mind things like space requirements in order to use certain weapons.

I think it's true that lots of people ignored the rules for minis in AdnD. But the rules were there.

You certainly didn't need miniatures for any of that. You only needed to say that you wanted to get around the target's flank and the DM only needed to say, on his turn, he turns to follow your movements (meaning he was not able to get to that flank). Of course that's when the other PCs moved into the flanks so somebody got a lower AC to hit.

1e was certainly based on miniature terminology and that probably made the transition from basic to advanced easier for a lot of people. 2e, however, pretty much disposed of it. Spells aren't listed with ranges and areas of effect in inches, they're in non-scale terms. You could still play with minis and a grid, but I would still estimate that the majority of players, just like in 1e, didn't play with them and if they did, it wasn't to the same degree of detail that they did in 3e and 4e. I suspect the Players Option book on Combat and Tactics got the game on the road toward mini-based combat.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
5e is certainly less of a miniatures game than 4E, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
It certainly is in the sense that it has fewer and poorer rules for using miniatures. That's /also/ something that could be addressed should WotC ever come through with the promised modularity.

In the implied sense of being more suited to TotM, though, not so much. 4e assumes a 5' grid and minis or tokens of some kind. 5e assumes precise measurements & geometric areas given in feet. I've run both TotM. 5e is a bit easier because there's fewer forced movement effects (fewer, not none), and because low hps and AC make the combats faster (one way or another). 4e is a bit easier because of the lower granularity and the fact areas are all just cubes of a few different sizes.


Moreover, there seems to be disconnect over what ’Theatre of the Mind’ actually is, and it’s one of the great myths that the ‘Indie’ movement perpetuated in the last decade. You don’t need any extra rules to facilitate theatre of the mind - people already naturally have an imagination. You just need to create the framework to allow players to engage in the creative imagination of a shared narrative. That’s precisely what you are given with 5th Edition D&D.
It's funny how we're arguing over some things we're basically in agreement on.

Yes, you don't /need/ specific rules to facilitate TotM. In that sense, 5e can definitely be played TotM - see, I'm agreeing with you. In that sense, necessarily, all versions of D&D can be played in that mode. Some - those with more granular measurements, more varied and geometrically precise areas, more opportunities to make positioning matter, and so forth - are a little harder than others.

But, while you don't need them, rules that facilitate TotM, do, tautologicaly, facilitate TotM, they make it easier for the DM to track all that positioning and such in his head. If a game is /intended/ to be run that way, it should really provide such rules. It's not like they're 'rules heavy' or complicated or anything. They're generally 'lighter' than D&D's traditional range/area and movement/positioning rules, for that matter.

The more rules you add, particularly if they pertain to distracting things like grid movement and tactical miniatures play, means the less time you’re players can actually engage with their own ‘theatre of the mind’.
Then, if 5e were really trying to be all 'TotM' it wouldn't have movement and range moves precise down to a granularity of 1', nor would it use a wide variety of exact geometric areas down the same granularity. It would eschew those in favor of a more 'rules lite' TotM-facilitating system.

Why it didn't is obvious: D&D had never done that before - because it's never fully escaped it's roots as a miniatures wargame - and 5e is all about capturing the feel of past editions of 'real D&D.'
 
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Herschel

Adventurer
4e will be remembered by me as the edition that broke me of the need to be a D&D RPG completest.
It will be remembered by me as the edition that had the worst marketing in D&D history.
It will be remembered by me as the edition that changed things for the benefit of the authors rather than the fans (see 4E Forgotten Realms).
It will be remembered by me as the edition that expected you to buy more than three core books to play the core game.
It will be remembered by me as the edition that, try as they may, even Necromancer Games couldn't support.
It will be remembered by me as the edition that had less content per page (and more whitespace) and yet continued to raise the price for products.
It will be remembered by me the edition that made EN World a very difficult place to visit for about 4 years.

However, since I don't want to be all negative (ha!), it did add one concept (which has been brought to 5E as well) that I like: the idea that a creature can be "unaligned".

Goodbye, 4E - and HUGE kudos to WotC for the 5E rollout. Everything is better this time around.

I'll remember you as the person who admitted never actually reading it yet constantly posting as if you were an "expert" on it extolling utter fabrications and inaccuracies as parts of the game. It reads rather funny you claiming others made this a hard place to come.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
I'll remember you as the person who admitted never actually reading it yet constantly posting as if you were an "expert" on it extolling utter fabrications and inaccuracies as parts of the game. It reads rather funny you claiming others made this a hard place to come.

Wow.

Pot/kettle. But that aside -

1. I've never claimed to be an expert.
2. What fabrications/innaccuracies are you referring to? (Or are you just mad that I never liked 4E?)
 

Herschel

Adventurer
You talked about things you didn't like in play, etc. yet admitted you didn't actually play it. It's like saying you dislike Aerosmith and critique how Joey Kramer is a poor drummer and their songs are structured so poorly without ever listening to an album.

You complain about Edition Wars, et you were at the very heart of the Edition Wars, more cause than affected. I have no issue with honest, informed critiques, tastes are subjective, but I will call out hyperbolic rants of fabrications.

I didn't like the math bloat of 3E or 4E, for example, MOAR NUMB3RS!!! is, IMO, a waste of time and makes things harder to keep working smoothly and also leads to too large of inequities. 4E was far better at keeping it in line than 3E, but later the splat options did start to open some loopholes.
 
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DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
I think you may have mis-read my posts.

I've never said I disliked things *in play* because I never played it. I certainly gave opinions on changes in 4E I didn't like, but I didn't need to play it to know that I hated what they did to the Realms, the Great Wheel, alignment, "core" books, etc. (And, certainly, the marketing for 4E annoyed me beyond belief.)

Also, I said EN World was a very difficult place to visit (though I did not explain why). You inferred that it had something to do with other posters and/or inciting edition wars. But the reason I felt that way was because half of us were playing a different game - so we no longer had a common game to discuss - unlike during 2002-2007 when we were all pretty much playing the same thing.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter anymore. I have no bad feelings toward 5E - in fact, I think they are doing a great job with the roll-out, and the game looks like it will be a great middle ground between 1E/2E and 3E/4E. (Actually, it seems like it would have been a more natural system progression after 2E than 3E was.)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I'll remember you as the person who...


And everyone else will remember you as the guy who got the thread closed, if you aren't careful.

Really - DON'T MAKE IT PERSONAL.

I keep typing that in big letters, but so many people seem to ignore this advice. Would bringing out the banhammer help you remember it? Because I'll do that, if you want.

Or anyone else? You think you need a reminder to not get personal, or not get into edition warring? We can provide it. Speak up now.

More seriously - folks, please. Don't leave your good sense behind. Be good to each other. If you can't be good, then at least leave each other alone, please.
 

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