Wizard Advice for New DM

[Lhorgrim]

Are the other players unhappy with 3.5 as well? If they are, I'd go back to 2E. If they like it, then 1 or 2. Perhaps you could rotate 3.5 with 2E. This is always difficult to do when most of your group are casual players, so YMMV.

But, in the end, you should play what makes your group happy.

Thank's for the response. The other players seem to be enjoying their characters, and having fun during the sessions. I have to say that I'm afraid the negative attitude coming from the wizard player is going to sour everyone on 3.5. These guys have been friends since high school, and I am the new guy(relatively). My area is fairly gamer poor, so my options for finding another group are less than slim. I guess my answer is, if there were a vote today they would go back to their comfort zone of 2E and I would have to either stop gaming, or play 2E and try not to be so bitter it ruins everyone's time.

 

[Gargoyle]

"My character is too weak" usually means "My character is not able to do as much as the rest of the party."

The problem may be that he is preparing spells that are inappropriate for the adventure, or that you are preparing challenges that are resistant to his abilities. Or maybe he really is just a whiner.

Or maybe his perceptions and complaints are more correct than you think. After all guys, in 2E wizards were more effective at lower levels. It was due to a broken little spell called sleep. Who else could single-handedly slay a big group of orcs but a 1st level wizard.

Now those orcs actually have a Strength score, carry 1d12 damage great axes, and get a saving throw against sleep. I'd say low level wizards are weaker in relation to the challenges they now face. The good thing is that they are no longer just a walking sleep spell.

The big problem with wizards is that they don't have something to do every round. They don't have as many spells as sorcerers, and are not effective in combat unless they are casting. The challenge to the DM is to design adventures that allow low level wizards to shine. Check out his skills and put some challenges in there that require their use. For example, if he has Knowledge (planes) then design an adventure around it that require knowledge checks to make encounters easier. You can also redesign monsters. Rolls succesful skill check. "These elite water mephits are immune to fire..."

The main thing is to make the wizard feel as important to the party as everyone else. When a cleric heals or turns the undead, everyone thinks "Glad we've got a cleric". You've got to make it the same for a low level wizard...high level wizards in 3E are already appreciated...so maybe your player has a point.

Some tips for low level wizards in 3.5:

- Don't prepare all your spell slots. Leave one spell slot unprepared so that you can spend 15 minutes preparing spells that are not used all the time. The strength of a wizard over a sorcerer is that they can cast lots of different spells, and this helps you cast esoteric things like detect fungus when you need to.

- Toughness might seem like a lousy feat, (and mostly it is) but if getting resurrected is difficult in your campaign, it might be a good choice for a 1st level wizard. I've seen it save wizards and sorcerers in my campaign...and I've seen those who haven't taken it die at -10 to -12 hit points. Adding good feats to your campaign that have Toughness as a prerequisite makes it less painful. (Wish they'd done that in the PHB though)

- Don't hoard your spells. Use them, then convince your group to rest or retreat after they are gone. Most of the time you can prepare them again before moving on.

- Learn to use your spells more effectively. Use that magic missle for a sure way of finishing off a wounded opponent rather than as a first strike. Use true strike to take out that sentry. Cast invisibility on the rogue instead of yourself.

 

[Lhorgrim]

And what do you mean wizard class progression is faster? Is that a house rule? As I recall 2e AD&D, the wizard had the slowest progession of any class, and I think I remember it well since I'm still bitter over getting screwed on the conversion to 3e

During part of our "ahem" discussion after the game last night the wizard player made that statement, and read off the xp requirements for a fighter and a wizard at 9th lvl from the 2E PHB. I took the argument as true at the time, and I haven't had a chance to double check it yet. The implication at the time was after a certain lvl the progression was easier for the wizard and harder for the fighter up to a certain lvl.
His experience with 2E wizards consists of his current PC who is around 15th lvl. This PC has been in play since well before I started gaming with them. As I understand it the PC in that game started at 9th or 10th lvl. So I don't think he has ever played a wizard that wasn't very powerful to start with.

 

[res]

So I don't think he has ever played a wizard that wasn't very powerful to start with.

To echo some of the others statements, that is your problem right there.

Hes never had to grow any character, let alone a Wizard, from the infant stages of a character, being 1st and 2nd level.

The last Wizard I played started at 2nd level and he grew to 10th or 11th before the game ended. It wasn't easy at the low levels and you really had to think about what spells to take and what to do with them. He wasn't that effective and had a hard time keeping up with the rest of the group damage wise. Then I hit level 5 and things changed. I went from "Guard me, look out, help" to "ok, who wants to die first" in power.

Looks like your player is a power gamer and doens't want to sit through the slow spots. Ask him if he wants to build a few higherlevel characters (straight wizards) to see how powerful they can be compaired to a fighter or rogue.

 

[Lhorgrim]

Thanks res, great idea.
I think that showing him what he will be capable of at higher level might help him be a little more patient. We are all new to 3.5, and I don't even really know what he'll be able to do at higher levels. The suggestions about tailoring the adventure to some of the wizard's specialties are also great.
I'm going to keep trying. I've put too much effort into getting them to try 3.5 to give up on it. I'll post after our next session with an update.

 

[Rl'Halsinor]

Perhaps my observation is way off course, but it seems to me that "role playing" isn't what he wants unless all his parameters and expectations are met. In other words, unless such and such occurs or is available as he wants it then he grumbles and pouts. One of my favorite characters ever was an old 1E Gnome fighter/thief whose highest stat was a 15 dex and rest were 10s, 11s, and one 13. He was great to roleplay. Nothing fancy, nothing powerful, but that is what made the roleplaying all the more fun. Deal with what you got.

Anyway, I agree with what many have said: Try to run two groups. The players who like 3.5 are the ones I would concentrate on. Encourage them to do both 2E and 3.5E. Pehaps you could offer some short 1 on 1 adventures with you as DM and one other playing their character. These are a challenge to you as a DM to create but they can be great fun and you can also build some strong ties with the player. Plus, this would tie them nicely into your 3.5 world AND eliminate the nay sayer. Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[Moorcrys]

Weakling wizards...

In the 3.0/3.5 campaigns I've run, I've always started the party at 3rd level in part to help alleviate your friend's problem. I think that wizards are especially touch-and-go at 1st and 2nd levels -- very low hit points and spell versatility. By third level (which is where I think you said he is now) providing you've thrown a couple scrolls his way to broaden his spellbook options he should start feeling a bit more useful. The loss of those no-save-spells hurt as well, as a wizard in 2nd edition could feel like his sleep spell or color spray was definitely going to help an encounter, even if he only had one of them.

I'd advise your friend that the worst is over -- at third level he should start feeling like he has more to contribute and it only gets better for a wizard from then on. In addition, regardless of how the classes progressed in 2nd edition, in 3rd edition (if you use the core rules) you level so very much faster that it shouldn't really be an issue as to who levels up when -- he'll be slinging around 4th and 5th level spells in no time.

Moorcrys

 

[billd91]

During part of our "ahem" discussion after the game last night the wizard player made that statement, and read off the xp requirements for a fighter and a wizard at 9th lvl from the 2E PHB. I took the argument as true at the time, and I haven't had a chance to double check it yet. The implication at the time was after a certain lvl the progression was easier for the wizard and harder for the fighter up to a certain lvl.
His experience with 2E wizards consists of his current PC who is around 15th lvl. This PC has been in play since well before I started gaming with them. As I understand it the PC in that game started at 9th or 10th lvl. So I don't think he has ever played a wizard that wasn't very powerful to start with.

This is true. Check out the tables. Through 6th level, a wizard needs more XP in 2nd edition than a fighter of the same level. For 7th-13th level, the wizard needs fewer. They meet back up at 14th level, and the wizard needs more from there out. It's one of the quirks of 1st/2nd editions. Some of the XP tables were designed to have certain classes accellerate in their advancement through certain levels. Think of it as the reward a wizard received for having to slog through some really rough earlier levels.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I countered that 2nd edition was no different, and that a low level mage in any system had to "pay his dues" before he could use world altering magic. So help me out EN Worlders. Is my buddy correct, is there nobody out there who runs a straight class wizard? Am I being too strict by not giving him more magic items? Have I given him too many? I really want to keep playing 3.5, so any help is appreciated. I'll try to keep an eye on this post today( I'm at work) and answer any questions for clarification about my group.
Thanks

Remind your buddy that in 2E Wizards didn't get bonus spells for high stats... only clerics got those. However, most groups that I played with house ruled that Wizards got the same number of bonus spells for an equally high Intelligence. Really I think he is just bellyaching because your group prefers 2E and they don't want to change. Magic Missile works the same way that it alwasy has... most spells are similar enough to their 2E counterparts that the differences are transparent or minimal at most.

In their defense though, I also liked 1E & 2E and if I had a group that would be willing to play it I'd shelve my 3.5E books and go back to the earlier editions. I DON'T like having rules for every little thing which is something that most of the 3.x fans DO like. Maybe your group feels like some of the flexibility of the game is being taken away because of the abundance of rules. Talk to them and ask them what they like about 2E that makes them come back. Maybe it might turn out to be something that you can inject into 3.X.

 

[Mark]

You might want to tone down the NPC stats, getting rid of the 28 point buy, and use the default non-elite array for most of them of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 and perhaps the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 for primary NPCs. These are the equivalent of a 16 point buy and a 22 point buy. Perhaps when the PCs are higher levels you could boost the NPCs up some more, but at low levels where the Wizard is already at somewhat of a supposed disadvantage, the heightened stats of the NPCs is going to seem more pronounced than against the other PCs.

Another area where you might want to take a closer look is at the rate of level gaining the players are accomplishing. It seems from your post that they are gaining a level each session which is faster than the norm. While I don't doubt that the awarding of experience is fair, it may be that the accelerated pace is because other PCs are pressing onward and not taking rest periods where the Wizard can replenish spells and be effective. This can give the impression that the Wizard is a less useful class to play if those spells are being thrown early and the Wizard is merely tagging along while the adventure continues.

Just some thoughts...and without all of the details I am only shooting in the dark, of course.