D&D 3E/3.5 Wizard limitations in 3e? Read first post before answering please.

[Aberzanzorax]

In a discussion on the quadratic wizard, linear fighter on the D&D next forum, a point occurred to me.

I wonder if people actually are aware of (and if they use) all of the wizard limitations, specifically those on learning and scribing spells.

Please check out these rules before answering:

1. A wizard must roll a spellcraft check, dc 15+ spell level, after 24 hours of studying the spell, to learn it and write it into his spellbook. Failure means he cannot learn that spell until he has increased his spellcraft by 1 point. (Levels up, generally).

2. A wizard is usually charged 50 gold times the level of the spell to copy from another wizard's book.

3. The act of scribing the spell costs 100 gold per page. A spell takes 1 page per spell level. (So scribing costs 100 gold per spell level).

Copying a spell requires, for each spell level:
level 0 - dc 15 spellcraft, 25 to copy, 100 to write - 125 gold
level 1 - dc 16 spellcraft, 50 to copy, 100 to write - 150 gold
level 2 - dc 17 spellcraft, 100 to copy, 200 to write - 300 gold
up through
level 9 - dc 24 spellcraft, 450 to copy, 900 to write - 1350 gold



The thread that inspired the question, if you're curious:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-ho...2529-five-suggestions-limit-wizard-power.html

 

[Blackbrrd]

I don't have problems with the power of wizards, but more the way a lot of challenges are trivialized.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I was aware of them, and I think have I kind of generally used them.

The relatively few PC wizards I've had have been allowed to spend their cash to learn spells. I think they spent it correctly, but I rarely checked the math. It's very unlikely that a character would fail those checks.

With NPCs, I usually just memorize spells arbitrarily and ignore the spellbook and assume the PCs never find it.

On a broader level, most people are well aware that wizards learn spells for free every level, and Collegiate Wizard is a very popular feat. Most wizards use the same spells over and over again, so adding spells to the book is something of a luxury. Also, cash is not really how characters are balanced.

Honestly, I think the main balancing factor of wizards is that it takes so long to put together a high-level wizard that no one wants to charop one. That said, I'm not one of those people who thinks that casters and noncasters should be the same. While I'm for changing magic to make it easier to play and less powerful, I don't think there's any need for a fundamental change.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm familiar with and use this.

Me and mine also enforce the acquisition and upkeep of material components. A character once had to spend half an hour trying to find a live spider to eat for a Spider Climb spell, we decided that looking for a live spider in the woods was a Survival check, the other PC's were busy and couldn't help him.

Casters are still powerful despite these limitations, and I for one think that's ok.

 

[Ashtagon]

I am familiar with those rules.

First, the gold costs are really trivial once past 3rd level.

The Spellcraft check is possibly a roadblock, but consider two points:

* For any given spell, there is almost certainly another spell of the same level that approximates the same effects. You want an orb of something spell? Chances of failing all five checks is pretty low.
* Assuming the wizard has his Intelligence score consistently at 18 through his career, maximises his Spellcraft skill ranks, and has no items to boost his Spellcraft check (not happening), and no feats to boost his Spellcraft check, he needs to roll an 8 or better to get a 1st level spell at 1st level. At 5th level, to get his level-appropriate 3rd level spells, he needs to roll 6+ (4+ to mop up any remaining 1st level spells). By the time he is able to get 9th level spells (17th level), he need only roll, um, nothing at all; it's an automatic success. And these are with no real optimism beyond what a noob might do. Those DCs do not keep up with the task.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Copying a spell requires, for each spell level:
level 0 - dc 15 spellcraft, 25 to copy, 100 to write - 125 gold
level 1 - dc 16 spellcraft, 50 to copy, 100 to write - 150 gold
level 2 - dc 17 spellcraft, 100 to copy, 200 to write - 300 gold
up through
level 9 - dc 24 spellcraft, 450 to copy, 900 to write - 1350 gold

Yup, know 'em, used 'em. They're problems under two circumstances: 1) Your DM is stingy, or 2) You're very low level. Spellcraft DCs and spell cost, like defensive casting DCs, don't keep up with casters. So a young wizard might think twice about wasting the gold on a failed learning check, especially if the DM is stingy.

But as Ashtagon says, eventually these speed bumps become trivial.

 

[lolstrider7]

I am very familiar with and use these rules.

As Ashtagon pointed out, these rules are trivial past 3rd level. However, he didn't emphasize quite how trivial they are.

First, the gold costs:
1) I will not discuss the many, many, many ways that wizards have to generate cash outside of encounters. How very Ciceronian of me.
2) Boccob's Blessed Book negates the cost for scribing the scroll into your book, and basically eliminates the page requirement too (also overlooked often). This is first reasonably affordable at 8th level by WBL.
3) The cost for copying a spell is if you purchase it from another character- and it is listed as "usually." Charm Person and Dominate Person exist for a reason . Alternatively, just steal the another Wizard's spellbook and start decrypting. Or just prepare from his spellbook.
4) Finally, Wizards don't even require that many spells to make the gold requirement that useful. Honestly they can get what they need with their free spells per level... everything else is just gravy. Get the staple spells- Contingency, Polymorph, Planar Binding, Wish, Disintegrate, Major Creation, Fabricate, Some BFC's, Some SoD's, maybe a direct damage spell or two. That will make you far and above more competent than any non-Cleric, non-Druid, non-Artificer party member. And that's just Core material.

Second, the spellcraft check:
This check is completely trivial... any Wizard who can't make a level-appropriate Spellcraft with a decent success rate is not competent. With 4 ranks and 18 INT at level 1, you have a +8 right off the top... That's a 60% success rate on the highest level spell you could cast with no optimization or investment whatsoever. For example, at level 2 (when you can feasibly afford to start purchasing spells or scrolls), your spellcraft check should be at a minimum of +13 (5 ranks, +2 synergy from Knowledge (arcana), +4 from INT, +2 masterwork tool). That's a 90% success rate with very little investment and optimization. At level 3 and above, you should have a 100% success rate without an issue, whether through spells that enhance skill checks, INT, or Spellcraft checks. Hell, a wand of Guidance of the Avatar is 4,500 gp and makes any Wizard with an INT of 16 or higher with a single rank in Spellcraft auto-pass the check to scribe a spell into his spellbook.

Also, as for the proposed "limitations":
These are laughable at best, for several reasons. I shall address each "limitation" individually:
1) Reduce Spell Slots: First, a Wizard typically needs 1-2 spells/encounter to be effective, so you're not limiting a wizard's effectiveness in combat at all by reducing spell slots. Second, outside of core, this is no issue at all... as you can just use any number of tricks to either generate spell slots or redistribute them. If anyone is curious... I could list them but that would take up another thread entirely. In core, a Wizard Shapechanges into a Solar and gains Cleric casting. Solved.
2) No Player Created Magic Items: First, if anyone thinks that Scrolls are a key to break the game for non-Artificers, he/she is sorely misguided- scribing scrolls is a gimmick at best. Second, by not allowing players to create magic items, you are eliminating many other classes' effectiveness. An Artificer is now hamstrung (and still better than most other classes given access to any single wand). Monks, Fighters, and Rogues become even more crippled (no custom UMD-boosting items for spell usage), and reducing their effective WBL by 1/2. If nothing else, this "limitation" is strictly a Druid buff (they have limited use for items anyway). Like Druids need it.
3) Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning: First, if anyone thinks that wizards have access to infinite spells, then he/she doesn't understand the rules governing wizard spells. Spells take up pages in spellbooks and do, in fact, take time and money to procure, even with the methods I outlined above. By doing removing this feature, then there's no reason to play a Wizard over a Sorcerer, except for metamagic.
4) Class Stealing Spells: It's really laughable the OP mentions Invisibility and Knock and not... say... Polymorph or Summon Monster. Wizards will jump through hoops to cast these spells, and it's probably better to just ban the entire polymorph line than to attempt any sort of cost fix though.
5) Make Combat Casting difficult: I can't even remember the last time I've seen a competently-played wizard even hit while casting a spell. But then again, most of those wizards believe it's better to not get hit than to improve Concentration.

TL;DR
The listed rules and limitations in the PHB are mostly trivial past level 3, and completely trivial past level 8. In other words, it's something to be mindful of, but does nothing whatsoever to curb the power of wizards.
It's not wizards specifically that are OP in D&D... it's magic in general.

Edit:
I don't agree with the quadratic wizard problem

 

[Li Shenron]

Those limitations apply only to spells acquired in addition to the 2 new spells per level, which do not cost anything to be added to the spellbook.

I think those costs however are very small. Personally I just keep under check the availability of additional spells, so that if I have the feeling that the wizard in the group is getting too many spells known then I would just let him find spellbooks with common spells which he probably already knows.

I voted that I don't agree with the quadratic wizard problem tho...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm aware. But IME wizards save up for / create a Blessed Book ASAP, removing the largest cost. And just find other wizards to trade spells with to avoid the first cost. Honestly, the first cost is pretty stupid. Wizards have every reason to collaborate with each other as much as possible to increase their respective knowledges. Unless they hate each other. But that goes without saying, doesn't it?

In any case, sorcerer is still plenty strong, and cleric and druid get ALL their spells for free, so trying to pinch the wizard hard on his spell acquisition in order to "balance casters" is flipping stupid and pointless.

 

[Loonook]

I'm aware. But IME wizards save up for / create a Blessed Book ASAP, removing the largest cost. And just find other wizards to trade spells with to avoid the first cost. Honestly, the first cost is pretty stupid. Wizards have every reason to collaborate with each other as much as possible to increase their respective knowledges. Unless they hate each other. But that goes without saying, doesn't it?

In any case, sorcerer is still plenty strong, and cleric and druid get ALL their spells for free, so trying to pinch the wizard hard on his spell acquisition in order to "balance casters" is flipping stupid and pointless.

Yes, because we trade military secrets with our enemies for the overall increase in power .

I am aware of all of these restrictions... And honestly believe that Clerics should have similar requirements. A Book of Hours/Litany concept would be an excellent way to both rein in Cleric's spellcasting and make them unique.

Clerics write their prayers, and develop their own personal connections with their deity through their Book of Hours, same as a spellbook. They focus their will, make their prayers and entreaties to their god(s), and maintain notes on their bond. Through focused meditation and appropriate sacrifices/gifts to their deity they gain further powers.

Domains provide a proscribed path of prayer, similar to monastic Orders and their Rule. But ehh... I'm just a silly goose who believes in a bit of transparency and the idea that your gods aren't Spellfones for your personal needs .

Slainte,

-Loonook.