Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Thanee]

But 100% of the time?

I'm making a single assumption there, that both characters are build normally and not specifically for the purpose of fighting each other (i.e. no contingent Antimagic Field items and similar nonsense, that you would never see on an actual character).

I really don't see what the monk could do to win this. It's not even a contest between the two.

The monk is just target practice for the wizard at this level.

Touch AC, Saves, Spell Resistance, Speed, that all doesn't matter in the slightest. It doesn't help at all against a well-prepared wizard, and every 20th level wizard should be well-prepared for situations like this with multiple working strategies.

Stunning Fist is the only weapon in the monk's repertoire, that could cause the wizard modest headaches, but it's surely not enough to kill him, even if the monk will be able to employ it at all, which means getting past both initiative (a slight advantage for the monk here, as long as this remains core only without spell research, otherwise the wizard will win initiative a lot more likely) and the Contingency spell, as well as a +30ish Fort save (including Moment of Prescience). How exactly should the monk do this!?

Bye
Thanee

 

[tylermalan]

I also am referring to just a monk. And I would think the Monk would be better agianst EVERY other melee class because of his abilities. Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt-like thing, his mobility just seems to be way higher.

But I see what you're saying Thanee, I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my friend was coming from. Now that I look at all the Monk abilities, he just doesn't have enough that would actually help him in combat, not near as many as I thought. You don't think any magic items could possibly tilt the scales in favor of the Monk?

 

[IcyCool]

It was agreed upon that we would build our characters specifically to fight each other, including the purchasing of magic items and the memorizing of spells, which means that They both know what they'll be up against (except specifics like stats and items carried etc...), and they'll be fully prepared for the fight ahead of time. This takes out a lot of answers that a few others have given as well.

Ah, then I'd say this fight will be a draw, with a slight lean towards the wizard if he gets initiative.

The combat will likely follow the whole, Monk whacks wizard, wizard's contingent teleport whisks him away, wizard can't find monk again. If the wizard goes first, then wizard throws a spell or spells and hopes the monk didn't buy something to protect against them. Provided the wizard picked a spell that the monk didn't purchase a defense against, the wizard will eventually get around to winning said duel. Otherwise, *smack* *teleport* *smack* *teleport* etc.

 

[Zimbel]

The only classes I'd say a Monk really had all that good a chance against would be Rogue, Bard, maybe Ranger, and maybe a Mage if the circumstances where right, as has been discussed here.

I'm not seeing Ranger (although I agree with you on Rogue & Bard - though a smart Bard given an action would Shadow Walk her/his body out of this combat, hire/charm a bunch of nice "friends", and then return).

 

[Zimbel]

I also am referring to just a monk. And I would think the Monk would be better agianst EVERY other melee class because of his abilities. Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt-like thing, his mobility just seems to be way higher.

But I see what you're saying Thanee, I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my friend was coming from. Now that I look at all the Monk abilities, he just doesn't have enough that would actually help him in combat, not near as many as I thought. You don't think any magic items could possibly tilt the scales in favor of the Monk?

Mobility is great. However, a Monk's mobility dosen't really compare well to:
1) A high-level wizard.
2) A high-level Sorcerer.
3) A Cleric with the Travel Domain. (starting around LV 7 or so)
4) A Druid (at almost any level, really).
5) a high-level Bard.

Also, mobility dosen't win duels. Death effects do. Effects that take out a combatant for a few rounds will. Plenty of damage does.

edit: Bard added.

 

[Thanee]

But I see what you're saying Thanee, I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my friend was coming from. Now that I look at all the Monk abilities, he just doesn't have enough that would actually help him in combat, not near as many as I thought. You don't think any magic items could possibly tilt the scales in favor of the Monk?

Sure, magic items can. There are mostly two things, which royally screw the wizard... Antimagic Fields (but only if they are combined with grappling, which won't happen, if the wizard was built for this purpose specifically, since the monk would never get close enough *and* have the Antimagic Field active at the same time; besides, the wizard wouldn't stand such a bad chance to escape from the grapple (because that would be one focus when the character is created) and then move out of the AMF and quickend teleport into safety to launch the actual attack from there, against which the monk will be completely helpless) and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (which doesn't really stop the Teleport either), but both of which wouldn't be available to the monk in any reasonable setup.

And in an unreasonable setup, the wizard will just divine what will happen, what abilities, equipment and preparation the monk has ahead of time and then know exactly what to do to stop the monk. No contest, once more.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

In addition to all this, I'm still wondering why so many people think Monks are underpowered, because even though I think the wizard would win in the above situations, I can't think of any other classes that would stand a chance one-on-one against a monk.

Sorcerer?

 

[Nytewolf]

Noting the comment that this would be a 3.0 fight and not a 3.5 fight, any Wiz worth his salt is going to cast Haste first round and kick into spell overload. Really unless the monk can 1st round stun the Wizard its over. The Monks evasion and mobility will mean nothing versus a Wizard that starts firing off Fort save spells. Lots of horrid wiltings and disintegrates. Pitch in a Power Word Stun after the first solid spell hit and its over.

 

[Zimbel]

Sure, magic items can. There are mostly two things, which royally screw the wizard... Antimagic Fields

Note that Antimagic fields also don't go through Prismatic Wall/Sphere

 

[Zimbel]

Noting the comment that this would be a 3.0 fight and not a 3.5 fight, any Wiz worth his salt is going to cast Haste first round and kick into spell overload. Really unless the monk can 1st round stun the Wizard its over. The Monks evasion and mobility will mean nothing versus a Wizard that starts firing off Fort save spells. Lots of horrid wiltings and disintegrates. Pitch in a Power Word Stun after the first solid spell hit and its over.

Heck, going by 3.0 rules would be silly; that would give the Wizard far too many advantages and the Monk several nasty disadvantages. If, for example, the wizard was insufficiently spelled up, start out with Haste, Time Stop. That's 4-10 more spells that the Wizard can get off in one round. Heck, in 3.0 Using summons to kill the Monk becomes very feasible.