Argent Silvermage
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There you go again with you "logic" and "sense of self preservation"Zad said:
Wizardru's Story Hour (updated 11/21)
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LordVyreth
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WizarDru said:FWIW, Mount Celestia would revoke the rights of any caster that intentionally and continually threw one it's creatures into guaranteed deaths, as well. Evil creatures, obviously, could care less.
Do you use an unusual rule form summons? By the default rules for summonings, the creatures don't actually die; they just get sent back home none the worse for wear. Now when you call a creature, using Planar Binding and/or Ally for example, the death is permanent.
And Zad, I wouldn't be too concerned. I'm not sure what he's told you, but we've talked in the other thread, and he assured me he has made plans for this adventure with the group's likes and dislikes taken into account. I can't really be more specific for obvious reasons, but if even this isn't general enough for you Dru, let me know and I'll edit it.
Zad
First Post
I think the general statement can be made that "Actions have consequences." True the summoned things don't die, but they can be uncomfortable. Calling up a summoned creature to stall a dragon while you escape is probably an acceptable usage. But recklessly sending them into bad situations will have consequences. (Assuming you are good.) Sure mistakes happen, but if they happen a lot, you can expect something to get upset. Bolo and the elementals is a great example. It wasn't one particular occurence that got him in trouble - it was the fact that he seemed to be repeatedly treating them poorly. Had a mage done it, they would have expected it, but he was a *druid* and should know better.
It's not a variant rule or anything so technical. It's about the fact that in this world, bad things happen when good people do bad things. Um...or something like that.
That only gives me mild comfort, as Bruce has thwarted us before. If there is any comfort to be had, it comes from the knowledge that it's *Wizardru's wife* that's leading the way and disarming the traps, and therefore any consequences are likely to befall her first, and therefore him shortly thereafter.
It's not a variant rule or anything so technical. It's about the fact that in this world, bad things happen when good people do bad things. Um...or something like that.
That only gives me mild comfort, as Bruce has thwarted us before. If there is any comfort to be had, it comes from the knowledge that it's *Wizardru's wife* that's leading the way and disarming the traps, and therefore any consequences are likely to befall her first, and therefore him shortly thereafter.
LordVyreth
First Post
Len said:
Hmm, interesting point. But do Elementals feel pain in the first place? It's not like they have nerve endings. I'll have to think about that for a bit. Not that it matters in the case of the Badger, Badger, Badger, etc. situation, though. Of course, that begs another question. Is it considered evil to summon evil creatures that way if you only use them as trap-fodder?
At any rate, the Bag of Tricks option should still be viable, since they're not extraplanar. Though Bolo might have issue with it, depending on how real you consider the BoT animals to be.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Zad pretty much summed it up correctly: actions have consequences. There is a different standard applied to different characters.
Wizards and Sorcerors are generally understood to be self-absorbed power-obsessed madmen. This doesn't give them a free pass, but it means less is expected of them. It's one reason that they can't summon planar allies as easily.
Bolo suffered a restriction because he was a druid, and druids are held to a higher standard by the Elemental Princes. Bolo summoned three different elementals and basically maltreated them, as far as the princes of water were concerned. That just doesn't fly and steps were taken. Bolo had several remedies as his disposal; he chose one and enacted it. The bag of tricks question is problematic: as far as Bolo is concerned, and would be up to Bolo...but even if he felt they were just phantasms, watching animals be mistreated would be uncomfortable for him, at the least.
Now, if Scorch or Dravot started summoning Celestial Elephants and threw them off a cliff to their deaths, over and over again when a better option existed....well, Mount Celestia would cut them off, too. Dravot could probably reason with the higher powers there with some chance of success (living saint and all that)....Scorch? Not so much. And given that Scorch is scarce likely to bow down before the beings there anyhow, he'd probably just change what he summoned.
Now, this will never happen with Evil creatures. Why? Two reasons: the archdukes and demon princes are thrilled to torture their minions in this fashion, for one, and the very act of summoning an evil creature is a questionable activity. Second, if a good character summons an evil being and then kills it off in such a nasty fashion, they've most likely taken a step closer to being evil themselves. The only way to win here is not to play.
The only time that evil beings would cause some sort of an injunction is if it was personal (such as pissing of Pazuzu prevented you from getting air demons). Since Scorch is generally the only one who even consider such an act, it's never really come up. Now, I'm sure there are specific cases where summoning a devil could be turned to good purposes...but this ain't Sepulchrave's game here. Saizho.
Wizards and Sorcerors are generally understood to be self-absorbed power-obsessed madmen. This doesn't give them a free pass, but it means less is expected of them. It's one reason that they can't summon planar allies as easily.
Bolo suffered a restriction because he was a druid, and druids are held to a higher standard by the Elemental Princes. Bolo summoned three different elementals and basically maltreated them, as far as the princes of water were concerned. That just doesn't fly and steps were taken. Bolo had several remedies as his disposal; he chose one and enacted it. The bag of tricks question is problematic: as far as Bolo is concerned, and would be up to Bolo...but even if he felt they were just phantasms, watching animals be mistreated would be uncomfortable for him, at the least.
Now, if Scorch or Dravot started summoning Celestial Elephants and threw them off a cliff to their deaths, over and over again when a better option existed....well, Mount Celestia would cut them off, too. Dravot could probably reason with the higher powers there with some chance of success (living saint and all that)....Scorch? Not so much. And given that Scorch is scarce likely to bow down before the beings there anyhow, he'd probably just change what he summoned.
Now, this will never happen with Evil creatures. Why? Two reasons: the archdukes and demon princes are thrilled to torture their minions in this fashion, for one, and the very act of summoning an evil creature is a questionable activity. Second, if a good character summons an evil being and then kills it off in such a nasty fashion, they've most likely taken a step closer to being evil themselves. The only way to win here is not to play.
The only time that evil beings would cause some sort of an injunction is if it was personal (such as pissing of Pazuzu prevented you from getting air demons). Since Scorch is generally the only one who even consider such an act, it's never really come up. Now, I'm sure there are specific cases where summoning a devil could be turned to good purposes...but this ain't Sepulchrave's game here. Saizho.
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WizarDru
Adventurer
LordVyreth said:
They're magical. I mean, they don't technically have eyes or vocal cords, either, but they see and talk normally. Regardless of whether or not they actually experience physical pain, having your entire body vaporized after being yanked through a transdimensional portal is....unsettling, pain or not. And having your body corrupted with poisons, possibly shifting your entire elemental type? Also not good.
Argent Silvermage
First Post
Yeah yeah yeah... Bolo screwed up. Can we get past this? Really.WizarDru said:
Argent Silvermage
First Post
LordVyreth said:
The Savage Sword of Meepo Inc
1) Aethramyr: (Dire Wolf Paladin Mount) Cresent, (Kobold de jour) Meepo
2) Kayleigh: (Cat Familiar) Sasha
3) Scorch: (Fox familiar) Flinch
4) Valenthe: (Shadows) Verilunda, Berlden, and Little Shade
5) Bolo: (Dire Lion ex-human Monk) Windsabre, (Battlebriar) Grove, (Animal Companion) Tailcatcher
6) Dravot: (Paladins of Pelor) Zira, Zara, Thorkeld.
There are many NPCs like all of the awakened Animals and plants Bolo has created and the entirety of Kobold Country as well as familys But the above list is the core members and thier "tag alongs". To my knowledge we have not had all of these beings on the board at once.
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