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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9138285" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>I can do most of that with no feats at all and the multiclass I mentioned itself is VERY viable as a character and better than most straight martials in most pillars of the game</p><p></p><p>If you are saying a Rogue-Bard multiclass is a bad character, then any Fighter or Barbarian is a bad character because such a multiclass it is going to play a lot better than those characters will (assuming identical starting abilities).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not true, especially when you consider things like climbing are often needed by most characters. Moreover with expertise I can beat a character with a higher main stat unless I completely dumped it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Like I said above I can do that build without any feats and still be better than most other characters at the skills that matter.</p><p></p><p>Without any feats at all I have 14 of 18 skills at 8th level and half of my PB through Jack of all trades in the 4 skills I don't have.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because I don't need a feat to be <u>BETTER</u> than the Paladin, not just equal better! More to the point if the Paladin wants this to be his thing then HE should take a feat so it is, or multiclass, AND prioritize Charisma over strength.</p><p></p><p>D&D is full of choices and if you choose to build a weak character in one area you should not whine when other characters are better than you in that area!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That is nonsense. Several races get ANY proficiency through race and a Bard gets ANY proficiency as his class ability and either a Rogue or a Bard can take expertise in ANY of their skill proficiencies.</p><p></p><p>So as a point of fact, RAW Religion IS a Rogues thing if he gets that proficiency somehow (like through Race) and takes expertise in it. Further a Bard gets jack of all trades making anything "his thing" to a degree.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly. My Rouge invested time and effort to know a lot about Religion, giving up things like extra attack to do it and pouring over the church history in the local thieves guild library. Your Paladin showed up to the church every day as part of his study and ignored to the preachers while he played with his sword.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If the Paladin wants to be better he should invest to be better and if he does, he will be better.</p><p></p><p>Hell the Paladin can go with a 13 Dex and a max Charisma and multiclass into Rogue at level 2 and have me beat all day long and at every level. If he CHOOSES not to do this and he tries to dominate the social situations he is stepping on MY TOES!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9138285, member: 7030563"] I can do most of that with no feats at all and the multiclass I mentioned itself is VERY viable as a character and better than most straight martials in most pillars of the game If you are saying a Rogue-Bard multiclass is a bad character, then any Fighter or Barbarian is a bad character because such a multiclass it is going to play a lot better than those characters will (assuming identical starting abilities). Not true, especially when you consider things like climbing are often needed by most characters. Moreover with expertise I can beat a character with a higher main stat unless I completely dumped it. Like I said above I can do that build without any feats and still be better than most other characters at the skills that matter. Without any feats at all I have 14 of 18 skills at 8th level and half of my PB through Jack of all trades in the 4 skills I don't have. Because I don't need a feat to be [U]BETTER[/U] than the Paladin, not just equal better! More to the point if the Paladin wants this to be his thing then HE should take a feat so it is, or multiclass, AND prioritize Charisma over strength. D&D is full of choices and if you choose to build a weak character in one area you should not whine when other characters are better than you in that area! That is nonsense. Several races get ANY proficiency through race and a Bard gets ANY proficiency as his class ability and either a Rogue or a Bard can take expertise in ANY of their skill proficiencies. So as a point of fact, RAW Religion IS a Rogues thing if he gets that proficiency somehow (like through Race) and takes expertise in it. Further a Bard gets jack of all trades making anything "his thing" to a degree. Exactly. My Rouge invested time and effort to know a lot about Religion, giving up things like extra attack to do it and pouring over the church history in the local thieves guild library. Your Paladin showed up to the church every day as part of his study and ignored to the preachers while he played with his sword. If the Paladin wants to be better he should invest to be better and if he does, he will be better. Hell the Paladin can go with a 13 Dex and a max Charisma and multiclass into Rogue at level 2 and have me beat all day long and at every level. If he CHOOSES not to do this and he tries to dominate the social situations he is stepping on MY TOES! [/QUOTE]
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