Wizards Sells Off GenCon!

[JohnNephew]

I don't know Peter, so I cannot speak to his motivations or capabilities. But assuming he is a guy who likes making money and is not doing this out of altruism, one can therefore assume his primary goal will not be making Gencon better, but making Gencon more profitable. We do that by increasing revenues and reducing costs, folks. Does this mean we Gencon attendees will be paying more for less in the future? It is one possible scenario. Will he raise the prices for exhibition so that small presses might not be able to afford to come? Another possibility.

I have spoken with Peter about his buying Gen Con, and there seems to be an awful lot of altruism involved. While keeping in mind that circumstances can change and people can change their minds, I do think it's fair to say that Gen Con's future is more secure in Peter's hands than just about anywhere else I can imagine. Peter's passion for gaming (in particular, unabashed hack & slash D&D -- which is probably why he and my wife, Michelle, the munchkin-power-gamer-in-denial, get along so well!) is hard to match. To call him a sharp businessman is an understatement, as well can be seen from the trajectory of Wizards over the past decade. He's also adaptable -- over the years, we've seen him break down and rebuild the way WotC did business, even when it was very unpopular for him to do so, to serve the long-term good of the business and its stakeholders.

As I understand it, Peter will be (when the due diligence is through and the deal is completed) sole owner of Gen Con. This means that, unlike WotC, he will not answer to a board of directors or other shareholders; he can define his goals as he pleases, rather than having to be primarily concerned with investors/shareholders, as was the case at WotC. He has told me that he's really looking forward to running a business where maximizing profit won't have to be the top of the priority list.

My guess is that he will run the business to be modestly profitable, but he won't be trying to make every last penny possible. He has a clear idea of the importance of Gen Con to the industry and the games that he loves. I expect he'll go to great length to keep the con accessible to the maximum number of gamers and small publishers, while keeping the business viable as an ongoing concern. (I actually suspect he'll wind up making more money than he plans to, since he has a bit of a golden touch.)

Mostly, I'm happy he's back in the biz, since it means more opportunities for my character in his campaign -- Diarmuid, the Master of Shadows -- to get some experience at convention games! (Diarmuid talks a good game, but to be useful as a rogue he really should get some skill points to allocate to things like Search and Disable Device...)

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games

 

[PA]

Thanks John.

 

[Lizard]

I just don't get it. Other than self-interest in your own drive/costs of getting to the con, why would people oppose putting the con where the most number of people are?

Well, I live in San Francisco, before that I lived in NYC, and I'm driving to GenCon, so take your "self interest" idiocy and shove it in a bag of holding.

Has it ever occured to you that equidistant from everyone is better than favoring one coast over the other? Or were you aware of history, that there once was a "GenCon East" (my first con!), and it flopped so badly there was never another? (Dammit!)

It's clear you haven't studied this issue at length. Try to do some more research, then get back to us with your findings. Thank you.

 

[Glyfair]

I'll say it again. If they want GenCon to make more money, move the damn thing out of the midwest, and into a major population center. San Diego is a good bet, since they are a convention city, and a short drive from Los Angeles, the most populated city in the United States. It's also a location that professionals WANT to visit, since it is much easier to justify a flight to a beach resort than to a frosty mid-west town to ones family.

It's not just the population center issue. Cost is a major issue in holding a gaming convention. They stopped holding Origins at Baltimore because it became just too expensive to hold a gaming convention there. You mention NYC, holding a gaming convention there is just INSANE.

You mention professionals wanting to visit San Diego. While San Diego might be a good location (after all, the San Diego Comic Con has a similiar demographic and is hugely popular), face it, professionals are not a major gaming con demographic.

The American Contract Bridge League (which admittedly has a very different group of players) has found Las Vegas to be the most popular destination for their National tournaments. Of course, this could be a marketing nightmare trying to bring kids to Las Vegas, but Vegas has been trying to move their image around. Plus dice in Las Vegas always have had a good relationship


Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Mistwell]

First, to Glyfair, I would be perfectly happy with Vegas as a location for the con. It's in reasonable driving distance to major population centers, and the flights are unusually inexpensive to fly there (because the casinos subsidize them to draw in more people). The rooms are also cheap, and there is additional entertainment all around. Sounds like a great location to me.

As for the professionals, I only mentioned them because they are one of the draws for general attendance at a con. Some people like to see the pros. I think the arguement stands for general attendance as well...it is easy to convince a family that isn't necessarily into the con that you should all go if you are going to a nice, sunny, coastal resort town than if you are going to a cold, non-resort location. That means increased attendance.

Now, as for Lizard...

Well, I live in San Francisco, before that I lived in NYC, and I'm driving to GenCon, so take your "self interest" idiocy and shove it in a bag of holding.

Has it ever occured to you that equidistant from everyone is better than favoring one coast over the other? Or were you aware of history, that there once was a "GenCon East" (my first con!), and it flopped so badly there was never another? (Dammit!)

It's clear you haven't studied this issue at length. Try to do some more research, then get back to us with your findings. Thank you.

First, I don't understand your hostility. Calling me an idiot was not called for. I asked a question - why would you be against moving the con, other than self-interest. It wasn't an accusation (and even if it had been, calling someone self-interested isn't as harsh as questioning their intelligence.) But you do it twice, later saying I haven't researched the issue sufficiently to be able to even speak to the topic. That's just not called for. Why are you being so defensive?

Making the con "central to all" is only applicable if you are driving. Let's face it, we live in a society where flying places outside of our region is more common than driving. Yes, some people would drive across the country to get to the con, but it is less likely that you will drive across the country from a coast, generally with the added expense of another stay overnight in a random town along the way, than it is to fly. Unless, of course, you put the con in a town that is not near a central airport hub, which makes the flight very expensive. On an average basis, I think you will find that, cost-wise, it is cheaper to fly to a central airport hub, from anywhere in the US, than it is to drive there. I'm glad you can afford the time and expense (or endurance) of driving across the nation to get to a game con, but I think most people cannot do that.

Again, I would use the San Diego Comic Convention as the example (because it's at least one I know about. I'm sure there are other very good convention examples out there). The demographic is similar (though I'd be willing to bet a lot there are more Magic: The Gathering and Pokemon fans than comic book fans at this point.) But look at the results: The comic convention drew 53,000 attendees last year, while Gencon drew less than half that number (a bit over 25,000). The Comic con also is widely credited with adding a significant amount of additional fans to the hobby every year, due to it's wide support within the convention city, and advertising in the surrounding population centers. But really, how many non-fans are going to go all the way to Indianapolis just to check this gaming thing out?

Really, I'm only arguing for something that would benefit our hobby the most. There's no reason to get angry at me for being passionate about this hobby, and believing that we should do everything we can to support its growth and prosperity.

I contend it is a good goal for gaming to make it to the critical mass necessary to slip into the "mainstream" of U.S. entertainment, and further that moving the largest gaming convention closer to a population center would help with that goal. It makes it easier for non-fans to be exposed to the industry; easier for the professionals to travel to the convention; easier on the families of fans (who may be non-fans) to go; and easier for the greatest number of fans to cheaply and easily reach the convention.

If you want to attack something, attack those ideas, not me.

 

[Glyfair]

Again, I would use the San Diego Comic Convention as the example (because it's at least one I know about. I'm sure there are other very good convention examples out there). The demographic is similar (though I'd be willing to bet a lot there are more Magic: The Gathering and Pokemon fans than comic book fans at this point.) But look at the results: The comic convention drew 53,000 attendees last year, while Gencon drew less than half that number (a bit over 25,000). The Comic con also is widely credited with adding a significant amount of additional fans to the hobby every year, due to it's wide support within the convention city, and advertising in the surrounding population centers. But really, how many non-fans are going to go all the way to Indianapolis just to check this gaming thing out? .

Only about twice as many as GenCon? I would have thought much more. There are several reasons.

First of all, the San Diego ComicCon is not just about comics. While that is main thrust, it has a much wider appeal. There is a significant amount other fan-type interests that go also, B-movies, gaming, etc.

Secondly, comics are just more popular than gaming. Comics have been around a LOT longer than roleplaying. You'll find many more comic book collectors than roleplayers. For one thing, comic books have a definite "collector" group. After all, look at the prices for the top comics. They are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. There isn't anything with roleplaying to quite compare to that group.

Although I have no hard statistics on how many gamers there are compared to comic collectors, I'd have to say that those numbers reflect well upon GenCon. I have to think that it says the they've done a good job of drawing gamers to the con.

Of course, it could just be a factor of gaming being a group activity that encourages gathering, as compared to comic collecting that can be done solo.

Personally, I long for the days when Origins used to alternate years between the East Coast and the West Coast and GenCon was the central convention. I am unlikely to travel further than a days drive to a convention, and running games at Origins used to be a regular activity (and Atlanticon on the years Origins wasn't on the East Coast).

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[JohnNephew]

I contend it is a good goal for gaming to make it to the critical mass necessary to slip into the "mainstream" of U.S. entertainment, and further that moving the largest gaming convention closer to a population center would help with that goal.

I think you may have some misperceptions about the size and distributions of US population and population densities.

The state of California, for example, has a large population -- but it's also a large state. Looking at a Census Bureau map, it appears to have the similar population density to Indiana and surrounding states (Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, etc.). And those states have the advantage of being a more circular area, rather than a long and thin one. (How long is the drive from SF to San Diego?)

Here's one way to look at it: Compare California to Indiana and its two next-door neighbors, Ohio and Illinois.

California
Land Area: 156k sq. miles
Population: 33.9 million
Density: 217/sq. mi.

Indiana + Illinois + Ohio
Land Area: 133k sq. miles
Population: 29.9 million
Density: 225/sq. mi.

(All my numbers are taken from the 2000 Census -- at http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/ -- with some rounding for convenience.)

Of course, people would come from neighboring states, not just California, but the wider you cast the net the better the Midwest looks. After all, the population density in Nevada is 18.2 persons per square mile (less than 1/10 those Midwestern states'!), and Arizona has a whopping 45.2/sq. mi. In contrast, Indiana neighbors that could be added to the mix are the likes of Michigan with 175, or even the relatively sparsely settled hills of Kentucky with 102!

Historically, West Coast game conventions just can't get the size that the Midwest and East Coast can. (Yes, there's the San Diego Comic Con -- but in the east there is the Chicago Comic Con as well as Dragon Con, Gen Con, and Origins.) I'm pretty sure WotC studied the issue before deciding on Indianapolis; I know that GAMA did before choosing Columbus, Ohio, as a permanent site for Origins after a decade of failure in moving it from place to place (including west coast venues like LA and San Jose).

 

[Lizard]

I contend it is a good goal for gaming to make it to the critical mass necessary to slip into the "mainstream" of U.S. entertainment, and further that moving the largest gaming convention closer to a population center would help with that goal. It makes it easier for non-fans to be exposed to the industry; easier for the professionals to travel to the convention; easier on the families of fans (who may be non-fans) to go; and easier for the greatest number of fans to cheaply and easily reach the convention.

If you want to attack something, attack those ideas, not me.

Let's see, where to begin...

a)Gaming is as mainstream as it ever will be. Roleplaying will never be a mass hobby. Moving GenCon to LA will do nothing to make it so.

b)Uhm, most game professionals don't live in large cities, because most game professionals earn less money than your average squeegee guy. Ever notice how many game companies are located in East Armpit, North Nowhere? There's a REASON for that...(Remember:If you want to make a million dollars in the game business, start with two million.)

c)Non fans won't be exposed to the industry. No one just "wanders in" to GenCon to see what's going on.

d)Families? Good lord, who wants their Aunt Trudy with them at GenCon?

e)It's as easy to fly to Indianapolis as it is to anywhere else. Thus, the only people concerned about distance are those driving. And, while LA or NYC or the like might be large population centers, the majority of gamers will still be living somewhere else, and have to fly or drive there. Thus, a central location equalizes inconvenience.

 

[Mixmaster]

This is the first of a multi-part reply:

I have had discussions over the years with many of the "big-wigs" in the convention industry, The company I work for is a market research organization that has done work for Andon and, before I worked for them, myself concerning bringing a CON to the NYC area.

First a quick rundown of events:

GenCon was run by TSR. It was IMO horrible. The lines to get pre-reg and events used to line up around the block. It would take HOURS. The ideas of computers and databases (at the site) were non-existant. The support staff was unkowing (and I'm not blaming them). Housing was run be the Greater Milwaukee Convention Bureau. Don't get me started on them.

The pre-reg books were late in arriving, the process for people getting their events was this: The pre-reg applications were put in a pile and the new ones were ADDED on top. If you were first, you might not get an event that somone who pre-reged after DID.

To fix that, they added the "early bird" pre-registration. Then finally they used a database (not just a mailing list). But at least three times, from talking to TSR/GenCon people, the database was erased or corrupted and it had to be re-entered.

Also, there was a GenCon East (Cherry Hill, NJ), a GenCon South (Florida) etc. Origins was run by GAMA and it would be in a different city each year (Dallas, Detroit, Baltimore, Philadelphia, San Diego, Milwaukee etc.) I went to nearly all of them - my con books are in storage; I'm not sure which one I missed.

Then WOTC bought TSR. We all know about that. It was then they started their surveys on Milwaukee and what the city can give them. The talk for awhile was for GenCon was going to Seattle.

Then WOTC bought Andon because they were a company who ran conventions and gave them the ability to run GenCon. I'm not sure on when GAMA allowed Andon to take over Origins, but I remember the "announcement" about Origins staying in Philadelphia for a least 3 years. It only lasted one year. The reasons I will specify later. Andon used computers at the CON. They had a database. You had a VIP#. You got in early, you got your events. It was all good.

Then Hasbro bought WOTC. We know about that too.

And now, Hasbro has sold GenCon to Peter Adkisson.

 

[Mixmaster]

Convention Cities:

East Coast (NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Baltimore)
It can't happen here. Reasons:

Hotel rooms are TOO much - The average gamer can barely afford $150+/night rooms, that's why the Pfister is the last to fill. Imagine $200-$350/night??

There might be enough rooms, but they are somewhat spread out. (BTW: You can't have it in downtown NYC. No hotels (I mean, we lost two of them 9/11).

Trade Unions - They charge WAY too much No small company can afford their rates. That was the reason Origins couldn't stay in Philly. You were not allowed to load, unload etc.

South (Florida, Atlanta) - Too hot. GenCon South proved that mostly Floridians went.

Chicago - Same as the East Coast. Expensive rooms, Unions. Besides, there are no dates in the summer - they're all taken.

Midwest - Detroit would work, but it would have to be downtown. I think the union issue might ply also. I know about Milwaukee and Indy. St. Louis - not enough hotel rooms during the summer. It's a big city for family reunions.

Cleveland?? Cincinnati?? Minneapolis?? Kansas City?? I've been to these cities, but I don't know their hotel infrastructure.

Las Vegas - No way. Gambling is everywhere. Can't buy books If I left my money at the blackjack tables.

LA / SF - Hotel prices (SF). Prices and they are too spread out (LA).

San Diego - It's has the weather, the hotel rooms, the infrastructure. I'd have no qualms about going. But isn't there already a decent size CON there now about the same time as GenCon??

I'm not a expert on TX (Dallas, Houston), Seattle, Denver or New Orleans - I'm willing to hear from people in those cities.